Closed thread?

[Siusaidh]

I think we're talking about relative degrees of fairness.

You probably know my view by now: the system will not be fair unless anyone in the whole population has access to domains at the point of dropping.

The farce of this week, and the ongoing carving out of large numbers of best domains by a small group of people, simply demonstrates that this system is weird.

I will be busy discussing the obvious counter-argument with Nominet this coming week, given the ammunition this fiasco provides for a completely different method of administering names when they expire and drop.

These seeming cartels of catchers, allegedly (and in my opinion pretty obviously) colluding to hijack the process, have provided me with the perfect platform.

Fairness (and a PR opportunity to raise a % of proceeds for charity) is indisputably better than the shambles that has developed.

And yes, I know that an auction process means those with money can bid more, but that already happens in delay reaction on auction sites - it's supply and demand. Except then everyone is at the whims of the seller, who may warehouse certain names for years, until they choose to sell. A direct auction at drop point is clearly the most transparent way to make all domains available and accessible to far more people, from Day 1.

 

[Hay]

Also want marshall to weigh in on this

No need for me to weigh in, I know nothing, im just an amateur

 

[Whois-Search]

That's interesting. Do you think they'll have exact drop times for domains? How would that work if you have example.uk at 3:46am and example.co.uk at 14:56 or something. You just use all your creates and catch one domain? Unless you deposit 90 grand lol. What if they just keep the existing system, close the DAC cache flaw somehow and release droplists every day, or for every 90 days or whatever with exact drop times. Therefore, the DAC wouldn't be hammered all day every day, just at the times where people want to catch specific domains. @Whois-Search thoughts?

Apart from the one slide of options on here:



https://media.nominet.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/UK-Policy-Roundtable-slides.pdf

Nominet haven’t actually said what they are going to do regarding specific drop times. Each option above obviously has its own pitfalls...

My guess is if the technical team want to align .uk to be the same EPP as gTLDs then they will do away with the DAC (retire it). EPP quotas then become important and so does the drop time just like .com

 

[Hay]

My guess is if the technical team want to align .uk to be the same EPP as gTLDs then they will do away with the DAC (retire it). EPP quotas then become important and so does the drop time just like .com

I Agree, i see a similar system to Verisign / iCANN coming into play where the entire days drops are over and done with in an hour.

 

[anthony]

...You probably know my view by now: the system will not be fair unless anyone in the whole population has access to domains at the point of dropping...

On this point, you are spot on, and as a non-Nominet member, and non-catcher, i gave up ever expecting Nominet to pull its finger out of its a**e and address the closed club it has facilitated for a generation or more. Right now, whenever the cream drops, the same small group of Nominet members gets them, with no chance of the public getting the same opportunity. Let's be honest here, catchers have had it good for donkeys, if it all ended tomorrow, their stocks are very fattened up anyway.

If Nominet were to give the large registrars a dabble, then so long as a condition were that they are forced to auction, then that would be a whole lot better than how things stand today. Remember, Nominet is meant to be here to serve all, and that isn't how things have panned out to date!

 

[Murray]

Fairness is equal opportunity - anyone can become a Nominet member and learn to code or buy a script

Fairness is staying within the rules - Nominet are making in unfair by not enforcing their own rules

I didn't come into domaining with any skill or money but I've made it work out for me to a level I'm happy with

 

[Siusaidh]

The Round Table slides set out starting point options, and I do agree that there is a considerable possibility that some re-make of the ROR process may be adopted, with advantage to large players.

The slides went on to detail some of the responses, as follows:

* Concerns a drop list would encourage 'drop catching'.
* Concerns a drop list would discourage 'drop catching'.
* Concerns around specific implementation and potential consequences for the DAC, an ROR style release process, create limits, multi-tagging.
* Concerns the previous domain holders are currently 'held to ransom' - suggestion of price restriction on re-sale within 1 year.
* Suggestions that Nominet implement an auction model on expired domains to encourage market value for registrants - who would then select a preferred registrar (.ee model).

Subsequent to the meeting, which I couldn't attend for health reasons that week, I submitted a paper:

PROPOSAL for FAIRER ACCESS to DROPPING DOMAIN NAMES

While I do understand that many here may be opposed to this option, I'll set it out for anyone interested in a separate thread.

 

[anthony]

Fairness is equal opportunity - anyone can become a Nominet member and learn to code or buy a script

Fairness is staying within the rules - Nominet are making in unfair by not enforcing their own rules

I didn't come into domaining with any skill or money but I've made it work out for me to a level I'm happy with

Not everyone wants to join Nominet, or has the innate ability to learn to code or buy a script simply to get a particular domain name. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't wish to do any of that. Fairness is far, far more than equal opportunity!

 

[Siusaidh]

Murray I respect you, but I'd argue that there are very many people who would like more direct access to domain names when they become available, but who lead busy lives already and do not want to pay to be a Nominet member or learn to code/run a script.

If there were no scripts involved in the process (eg auction process) then no-one would need to go through the impressive learning curve you undertook.

My point is that drop-catching doesn't even have to be part of the process.

 

[Murray]

Not everyone wants to join Nominet, or has the innate ability to learn to code or buy a script simply to get a particular domain name. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people wouldn't wish to do any of that. Fairness is far, far more than equal opportunity!

If the only reason you can't do something is because you don't want to, then that is fair

 

[Siusaidh]

I totally agree that the model imposed last July seemed very unfair to me. It simply favoured big registrars, who are an even smaller subset of the general public than all Nominet tag-holders. It just didn't seem right to me, to set up a system that favoured one particular group of more powerful industry players. I don't want the system to favour anyone.

Thanks if you choose to read the report I submitted, but I warn you, I have been quite ruthless in the way I set out my arguments, and they will probably offend. When you try to win an exercise in persuasion, you sometimes have to fight a bit hard. I don't expect it to be liked here, but you may as well know what I'm pushing. I've always approached the internet and domains this way. I want a free for all for all. That has to include as much access to things as possible.

Now I'm off to bed. Partner pissed off with me. Classic.

 

[webber]

I agree with @Siusaidh that an auction model held by the registry itself will be a lot more fair.
In fact Nominet could just provide an API for registrars (no front end) so bids could be placed with your preferred/trusted registrar.
My only problem with this would be who gets the revenue.
An auction system will eliminate any technical (learning to code) or financial (Nominet fees) barriers that would put off or block someone interested in a single domain for example.
It would create a level playing field for everyone - whether they make domain names their business or whether their business needs a domain name.
The only differentiating factor will be the price someone is willing to pay, which is a very accurate measurement of their interest.
The secondary market already does that fairly well, but to the benefit of a few "lucky" people.
So if Nominet was to set up a charity for handling all this which would take a share of the revenue to cover its running cost while donating the rest to good causes, then it will be very difficult to argue against that.
There would still be domain investors, there would still be a secondary market, but at the point of "dropping"/expiring, domains will be made available to anyone interested – fair!

 

[Murray]

An auction system will eliminate any technical (learning to code) or financial barriers!

:|

 

[webber]

:|

if you have to pay £500 Nominet joining fee, plus £100 for a years membership, plus £25 for DAC access, then yes, that is a financial barrier.
If you are a "domainer" that initial cost isn't a problem, but if all you want is a measly domain then that is a massive barrier.

 

[Murray]

if you have to pay £500 Nominet joining fee, plus £100 for a years membership, plus £25 for DAC access, then yes, that is a financial barrier.
If you are a "domainer" that initial cost isn't a problem, but if all you want is a measly domain then that is a massive barrier.

Knowing Nominet you will probably have to give them £50,000 to hold onto first before any auction starts

If it's a measly domain if will probably be ftr or you will be able to buy it for less than costs of catching

Or, if it's an actual good domain then people with much deeper pockets will buy it at auction

 

[webber]

This is why it's imperative that such a system is not set up for the sole benefit of Nominet.
Charity route is the only way.
In fact, Nominet as a registry should be a not-for-profit organisation

 

[WalkinDude]

Changes being proposed benefit millionaires who have all day to at their leisure bid for choicest domain names. What a "solution"? About as exciting as Wall St.

 

[ukdomains]

Changes being proposed benefit millionaires who have all day to at their leisure bid for choicest domain names. What a solution? About as exciting was the Wall St.

Similar to the current setup spend big on membership = more domains

New auction system = pay to win

 

[WalkinDude]

The new system should be bid for time.

Number slots is 24hr divided by no. Of interested parties going into the drop.

Openly trusted random computer determines drop time unknown to anyone.

If drops in your slot and you reg or position your dropcatcher to reg in that slot bingo.

You cut out dropcatchers catching for themselves as well as you on same domains.

You maintain sacred right that a dropped domain should cost no more than reg fee.

And you avoid handing domaining over to who or she with fattest purse.

And cos ceiling on time bids intrinsic to unknown drop time you make system affordable to most people except random time wasters.

If winner doesnt pay up domain offered to bidder who bid for most slots.

Only winning bidder pays for slots. If you dont win you pay nothing.

Handing dropcatching to nominet on a platter to raise millions then billions in free money is a terrible idea.

 

[Murray]

At the moment, the only change to Nominet rules (assuming they start to enforce them) to make it 100% fair would be you can only chase with a script you made yourself

Then it would be down to individual ability and time put into perfecting your own script

That would reward the people that deserve to be rewarded

No one deserves a trophy just for turning up