BHYADOM success rate

[Whois-Search]

When Giraffe dropped 2100 three letter .uk with ZXQ...

BHAYDOM was able to scoop up 743 of them

So @Hay rather than bitching....

I’m wondering how this is technically possible using one tag , one dac , one epp connection

Is there something we are missing with the delayed DAC ? Scanning more names at once ?

If you actually read my posts above I asked how it is technically possible that one tag can be so successful. I didn’t claim anything else or accuse them of cheating.

Also I seem to have answered my own question here ....

When you go registering 1000+ names like that on the drop....That gives you extra lookups on the time delay DAC:

• The daily limit is set at 5x the number of domain names on tag PLUS 200x the highest monthly new registrations figure from the previous 12 months and is capped at 3 million daily queries. This figure is recalculated at midnight on the first day of the month.

https://registrars.nominet.uk/uk-na...-domain-management/acceptable-use-policy/#dac

You can then use that quota to scan more dropping names at once (rather than firing one at a time on real time DAC).

However the time delayed DAC is by its very nature delayed by 100ms. If you share your real time DAC quote throughout the day it’s 200ms.

So while I agree with Susan the system not perfect....

Nominet make these rules up not us.

 

[Murray]

So if all the top dozen catchers perceive themselves as getting a fair crack it's no longer shambolic despite average Joe wanting in standing no chance?

Whereas if the elite catchers discover that one amongst them is super elite and catches more than their fair share, in the eyes of their most direct rivals, then it is shambolic?

Is this the argument?.

Fair doesn't mean everyone has the same chance, fair is having an equal opportunity to participate within the given rule set and then seeing who the best is

It's deemed unfair when people operate outside of the rules (I have no idea if that's what happening in this instance btw just speaking in general)

 

[Siusaidh]

If actually read my posts above I asked how it is technically possible that one tag can be so successful. I didn’t claim anything else or accuse them of cheating.

Andrew, just to be clear, I wasn't referring to you in anything I said above. In all dealings I've had with you, I've been grateful for your integrity and class. Just wanted to clarify that. Some people are bitchy though. The system is what it is. They shouldn't blame other people if they try to maximise the system. The system itself is the problem.

To Murray: I respect you but I disagree - 'fair' IS everyone having the same chance, at the point that a name drops, without requiring the British public to have inside and detailed knowledge of what to be frank is an unnecessary system. Until everyone has equal access to released domains, based on market value, I can't say I am totally sympathetic to accusations of unfairness directed at people gaming a loose system which gets easily exploited. I can see it's frustrating, but the unfairness runs deeper, because even when you argue that people should be rewarded for developing catching skills (and I 'get' that), it is still a system that excludes 99.999 of the British public.

But we've been through these issues before! Let's see what Nominet comes up with.

 

[Murray]

To Murray: I respect you but I disagree - 'fair' IS everyone having the same chance, at the point that a name drops, without requiring the British public to have inside and detailed knowledge of what to be frank is an unnecessary system.

It's 100% fair anyone can do it atm, become a Nominet registrar, learn to code or buy a competitive script

I started without money or knowledge and I managed to carve out a small piece of the pie for myself

Anyone could do what I did, albeit it's harder now with public catchers less competitive and generally a lack of quality domains dropping vs the past

Why does it need to be handed to people on a plate? making it a lottery will benefit everyone and no one at the same time

 

[AlexR]

However the time delayed DAC is by its very nature delayed by 100ms. If you share your real time DAC quote throughout the day it’s 200ms.

Can someone explain this to me please? I don't quite follow it!

 

[Siusaidh]

Murray, most of the UK public don't want to learn how to code, and shouldn't have to. If I'm running a business, and I'm working flat out at that, why should I have to learn how to code to access a domain name that would support my business. All that work, just for one domain. The coding element excludes the vast majority of people at the point where the domain becomes available. I don't think that's right. If it becomes available, I should be able to buy it immediately at the market price, whatever it will sell for. I believe domain releases should be opened up to the entire British public.

I agree with your scepticism about a lottery system. That randomises everything, and the general public are no better off. It just complicates what should be the simple process of acquiring the domain as soon as it drops.

 

[Whois-Search]

Can someone explain this to me please? I don't quite follow it!

Real Time DAC

The real time DAC is a maximum of 432,000 checks per rolling 24 hours.

If there are 86400 seconds in a day you can check 5 times a second (432000 / 86400). Which means you can check every 200ms seconds (1000 ms / 5 ).

You normally use 6 EPP connections to chase 6 names at once. You also look for the caching flaw in the DAC.

Time Delay DAC

The time delay Dac is delayed by 100ms to start with. However you get more quota (if you register a lot of names one month):

“The daily limit is set at 5x the number of domain names on tag PLUS 200x the highest monthly new registrations figure from the previous 12 months and is capped at 3 million daily queries. This figure is recalculated at midnight on the first day of the month.”

So if you registered 1000 names with 1000 on your tag already:

5 x 1000 on tag = 5000 checks
200 x 1000 new reg = 200,000 checks

You could use those 205,000 extra lookups every 100ms to check in between your real time DAC checks? And who knows there might be another flaw?

Not only that you can scan a bigger set of names including less valuable names (check more names at once). That is why he gets some names but not other premium drops.

 

[bonusmedia]

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

 

[Murray]

I believe domain releases should be opened up to the entire British public..

They are open to the entire British public currently

if it becomes available, I should be able to buy it immediately at the market price, whatever it will sell for.

That's what happens at the moment? someone catches it, if people want it they approach them to buy

A seller wants to sell, if they ask for too much they're only hurting themselves

I want Murray.co.uk it sold for £552 in 2011 https://domainlore.uk/murray.co.uk before I became interested in domains

I will never get it now, how is that fair? just because I became interested in it later than them

Should a domain only be allowed to be registered for a year before it's auctioned again? would that be fairer? I think it would, it would make domains unusable pretty much but it would give everyone a fair crack (if your pockets are deep enough)

Ultimately if the current system was changed to auctions 99% of auctions would be bought by domainers anyway

 

[keys]

A simple answer might be to raise the registration and renewal costs, such that only small portfolios are financially viable. Two or three times the current level would make little difference to business use, but it would make dropcatching a lot less popular or competitive.

No fear of this being implemented, because it would reduce overall revenues for Nominet.

 

[cyberdomains]

One of the things Nominet could do to make it a little bit fairer is introduce an additional status on a dropping domain, say 'Q', that when set would allow queuing of registration requests at the EPP server, one of which is randomly selected as the winner. Think of this as a randomised queue structure.

For instance, say the following domain "domain.uk" is dropping. Interested parties would query the DAC for "domain.uk" over the course of the day as normal. When the domain is about to drop, it enter's the 'Q' phase which lasts 1000ms. During this time, create requests sent to the EPP would be inserted into a randomised queue. At the end of the 'Q' phase, one of the requests in the queue is processed. If it fails, another request is randomly selected, until the domain is registered.

The benefit of a random queue means that those with the fastest systems or bigger DAC quotas don't necessary win most of the time and gives other people a bit more chance to win their names.

 

[webber]

One of the things Nominet could do to make it a little bit fairer is introduce an additional status on a dropping domain, say 'Q'.

Not really, you can't reinvent the wheel... Must keep things in line with other registries as much as possible.
But speaking of a new domain status – Reserved would be nice to have. Other registries use it. You reserve a domain and not get charged for it for up to 30 days during which you can change its status to registered. This would remove the need for the current 5% delete limit

 

[AlexR]

Real Time DAC

The real time DAC is a maximum of 432,000 checks per rolling 24 hours.

If there are 86400 seconds in a day you can check 5 times a second (432000 / 86400). Which means you can check every 200ms seconds (1000 ms / 5 ).

You normally use 6 EPP connections to chase 6 names at once. You also look for the caching flaw in the DAC.

Time Delay DAC

The time delay Dac is delayed by 100ms to start with. However you get more quota (if you register a lot of names one month):

“The daily limit is set at 5x the number of domain names on tag PLUS 200x the highest monthly new registrations figure from the previous 12 months and is capped at 3 million daily queries. This figure is recalculated at midnight on the first day of the month.”

So if you registered 1000 names with 1000 on your tag already:

5 x 1000 on tag = 5000 checks
200 x 1000 new reg = 200,000 checks

You could use those 205,000 extra lookups every 100ms to check in between your real time DAC checks? And who knows there might be another flaw?

Not only that you can scan a bigger set of names including less valuable names (check more names at once). That is why he gets some names but not other premium drops.

I'm not sure this is correct.

1) A new tag has a daily limit of 480,000 lookups, since it's new I assume.
2) As per nominet TOCS:
If your daily limit is greater than 480,000 then your query rate is increased to 3x daily limit /1440
-> so it would need to be above 480K to get the max 1000 daily limit?
3) To get to the above 480K
The daily limit is set at 5x the number of domain names on tag PLUS 200x the highest monthly new registrations figure from the previous 12 months and is capped at 3 million daily queries
-> So to get a higher limit you'd need to register a bunch of domains in a month on the tag.
e.g. if you registered 3000 domains in a month, you'd get
2000 x 5 = 10 000
2000 x 200=400 000
410 000
So you'd need to register more than 2K domains in a month to get over the 480k limit, in order to get more lookups?
4) However the time delay has a 100ms response delay.
"Queries can be sent to the time delay DAC without waiting for the previous query to return. The time delay DAC will just queue the queries."
So they could just be queued, so the response time would be irrelevant?

Have I understood this correctly?

 

[Fred Steven]

One of the things Nominet could do to make it a little bit fairer is introduce an additional status on a dropping domain, say 'Q', that when set would allow queuing of registration requests at the EPP server, one of which is randomly selected as the winner. Think of this as a randomised queue structure.

For instance, say the following domain "domain.uk" is dropping. Interested parties would query the DAC for "domain.uk" over the course of the day as normal. When the domain is about to drop, it enter's the 'Q' phase which lasts 1000ms. During this time, create requests sent to the EPP would be inserted into a randomised queue. At the end of the 'Q' phase, one of the requests in the queue is processed. If it fails, another request is randomly selected, until the domain is registered.

The benefit of a random queue means that those with the fastest systems or bigger DAC quotas don't necessary win most of the time and gives other people a bit more chance to win their names.

Would it not be most simple, that anybody can register an interest against a domain, and the system just randomly assigns a winner. That would make it fair for everybody and takes away the DAC issue and any flaws.

 

[DaveP]

Funny to still see threads like this pop up. Over the years exploits have been found time and again with either DAC or EPP. It is all part of the game. Some of us have gone on winning streaks in years gone by due to something we've discovered at one point or another.

I done a fair bit of bitching myself in the past, but all in good competitive spirit of course.

Stay safe everyone.

 

[Whois-Search]

-> so it would need to be above 480K to get the max 1000 daily limit?

Real time Dac is 432,000
Time Delay Dac is 480,000

https://registrars.nominet.uk/uk-na...-domain-management/acceptable-use-policy/#dac

So you'd need to register more than 2K domains in a month to get over the 480k limit, in order to get more lookups?

Yes which is what BHAYDOM did when he caught 743 of our 3 letter .uk drops the other month.

So they could just be queued, so the response time would be irrelevant?

If there is a 100ms delay you can at least check every 100ms which is still faster than your 200ms real time shared quota.

 

[Sam]

Funny to still see threads like this pop up. Over the years exploits have been found time and again with either DAC or EPP. It is all part of the game. Some of us have gone on winning streaks in years gone by due to something we've discovered at one point or another.


I done a fair bit of bitching myself in the past, but all in good competitive spirit of course.

Stay safe everyone.

True and you don’t really care as the drops are dreadful these days apart from link domains

 

[Hay]

...

 

[Fred Steven]

Looks like Untagged are leading the way now guess im not that good after all

Nobody said you were good, just that you are probably cheating

 

[dee]

To Murray: I respect you but I disagree - 'fair' IS everyone having the same chance, at the point that a name drops, without requiring the British public to have inside and detailed knowledge of what to be frank is an unnecessary system. Until everyone has equal access to released domains, based on market value, I can't say I am totally sympathetic to accusations of unfairness directed at people gaming a loose system which gets easily exploited. I can see it's frustrating, but the unfairness runs deeper, because even when you argue that people should be rewarded for developing catching skills (and I 'get' that), it is still a system that excludes 99.999 of the British public.

Why would that be fair though really ? It certainly wouldnt be fair on the people who have spent years honing their code / craft (and im not one of them) This is a business.Like any other business. Fair is always with hindsight. I wish i'd actually pressed go when I set up to mine bitcoin when it started and hadnt got waylaid by something ese. I'd be very rich right now. I wish i'd bought property in say brixton 25 years ago, but i didnt see it at the time and had no interest.

You could say the same about anything thats desirable. I want to live in Mayfair in a massive house, but until prime real estate is made fair for eveyone thats not happening.