UK whois protection

[Jac]

James

Unless you are saying Jay lives at Nominet and all his activities no mater what they are, are in fact Nominet related and he has no "personal life"? So I think you should read my thread correctly.

olebean

Get over yourself mate! I was simply pointing out that you and every other body on this forum know how to contact Jay Daley. He has made no secret of the fact he works for Nominet or how he can be contacted. I was not referring to him as a registrant of a domain name but if he does own domain names which are being used for business purposes; as in the quest for profit; then I would expect to see a contact address on the whois.

Geez... what do you want? Total exemption from every rule that applies to everyone else in life? Go speak to your M.P.

Not emailing my surname is my right to chose when and if I will provide it.

Not letting me or Nominet know who to expect tomorrow is IMO just plain bad manners. You are, by the way, in a minority of 5 to 1 on that score. Like I said, get over yourself.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[olebean]

Okay then if the domain name was earning".... instead of "I" read "It's always the same sometimes.

Regards
James Conaghan

James

"Always the same" too true, some of use like to ensure what is occurring at ground level on operational processes and decisions is transmitted to the wider community... Its nice to see you take it so well!

Oh dear "if the domain name was earning".... The domain name doesn't necessarily have to generate or earn money for the registrant.

As was said in another post:

I reg a domain, for a childrens football team, I pay (on a charitable basis) the hosting fees, a friend creates the site. Nominet refuses to allow me to opt out.

In your case James, considering your domain is in conection with activity whereby you recieve funds albeit expenses you should have less right to opt out

 

[olebean]

olebean

Get over yourself mate! I was simply pointing out that you and every other body on this forum know how to contact Jay Daley. He has made no secret of the fact he works for Nominet or how he can be contacted. I was not referring to him as a registrant of a domain name but if he does own domain names which are being used for business purposes; as in the quest for profit; then I would expect to see a contact address on the whois.

Geez... what do you want? Total exemption from every rule that applies to everyone else in life? Go speak to your M.P.



Not letting me or Nominet know who to expect tomorrow is IMO just plain bad manners. You are, by the way, in a minority of 5 to 1 on that score. Like I said, get over yourself.

Regards
James Conaghan

Oh dear James

Sometimes you just cannot lead blind horses to water......

Firstly the use of Jay was an "analogy" and in no way meant to impart that Jay had done anything untoward I am aware of. If you read my comments you would have noted that..... Well done for missing it!


Secondly Nominet know I am coming.

 

[Jac]

99% of opt-outs will remain opted out i.e. not reported.

Only those at the receiving end a report from probably malicious or jealousy related motive have to have their personal details spread across the web.

Doesn't sound fair to me.

You may be right; it isn't fair; but in general, you don't get punished for breaking a rule, you get punished for being caught breaking it. If someone decides to complain about rule breaking are they wrong to do so? Maybe they aren't being fair, but they aren't wrong either, because (as I keep saying) rules apply to everyone equally, even me. There are legitimate reasons why the whois is as it is.

However - I think the 5 day opt out sounds like a good idea, though I think it should be a month's notice because of hols etc.

-aqls-

There are also legitimate reasons why these things may have to be done faster than a month.

Here is a story another Nominet member posted on nom-steer today. He gave me his permission to use it. I quote it verbatim.

There is a big difference between privacy and secrecy.

Here is a true story:

A few years ago a customer called me complaining his details were in the whois. I told him it was part of the rules he had agreed to when he registered. He went totally mad and this correspondence went on all day.

I guessed something was suspicious and investigated his web hosting account. He was selling drugs online via a password protected shoping cart. The resulting police investigation involved 12 arrests of people not previously known to the police. He is out of prison now (he only got two years) but fighting the sequestration of his assetts under the proceeds of crime act.

Following this incident I chose 100 customers accounts at random and investigated them (over a few weeks as I had spare bits of time). More than 30 were up to some sort of impropriety ranging from dodgy ebay dealings to misrepresenting themselves as limited companies or usenet trolling. Many were faking their details in the whois or just using fake names in their domain registrations. Many in .uk were trading but opting out of the whois.

The whois is not actually browseable. Peopel can;t flick through it looking for people to stalk. They only go after people who have had some contact with them. People who feel that vulnerable should either not have domain names or should not engage with certain sections of the internet.

The internet encourages bad behaviour by the apparent anonimity it provides, which is why we have a huge problem with child pronography that did not exist to that level before the internet.

We are involved in about four or five criminal investigations every year ranging from terrorism to drugs to child porn and two or three of those will have been discovered by me when a customer says something that just does not ring true.

Privacy is not a bad thing but anonimity and secrecy IS.

Not suggesting at all that anyone on this forum is up to criminal shennanigans, but the above story is another reason why the 'powers that be' want to see Nominet maintain a correctly opted-in whois.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Whois-Search]

As an UK individual who opted-out I could host anything I like on the domain name ? Warez and Pr0n..........

Therefore the "rule" should apply to the domain name and not what is hosted on it! Which the ISP is responsible for not Nominet.

 

[Jac]

In your case James, considering your domain is in conection with activity whereby you recieve funds albeit expenses you should have less right to opt out

olebean

I will repeat verbatim what I have just said to Whois-Search on nom-steer. I have nothing to hide and I am more than happy to make my viewpoints public.

[Originally posted by Jac on nom-steer]

Being paid expenses is NOT making money nor does it equate to recompense. Being paid expenses is simply reimbursing someone for what they themselves have already spent; it is NOT recompense!

Conaghan is my family name and is *very* personal to me. If you or anyone else on Acorn Domains doesn't like the opt-out rule, by all means lobby Nominet and/or the PAB for changes, but why do you and they always have to make these things into a personal vendetta? It's a hypocritical standpoint from people who seem more interested in finding fault with Uncle Tom Cobbley and his dog than in just doing the right thing themselves. Rules apply to everyone equally! conaghan.me.uk is a very personal registration! If you want to get personal, feel free to do so tomorrow when we meet at Nominet.

However, because I am actually now sick of this kind of witch-hunt on all things Nominet and PAB, I have opted myself back in. I have nothing to hide. Pity the same can't be said of many of the opt-outs being discussed and/or condemned on Acorn Domains. Howls of protest and cries of "foul" do not equate to righteousness and it would be a breath of fresh air indeed, if someone on that forum showed some real integrity instead of constantly just bitching for the sake of it.

Sorry if that pisses some of you off, but I figure what's good enough for you is good enough for me.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Whois-Search]

And I will repeat what I put:

Sometimes people like the PAB won't see past the term "user registrants"
unless you give examples which are often personal i.e. "how would you like
it if it happened to you".

On here (Nom-Steer) people will either dismiss it or make some pedantic comment.

I was merely asking how clear the whois opt-out rule is and why is it
abused.

 

[sneezycheese]

Not suggesting at all that anyone on this forum is up to criminal shennanigans, but the above story is another reason why the 'powers that be' want to see Nominet maintain a correctly opted-in whois.

...I don't think anyone is disagreeing with what you've just said, that's the point - Having a 'Correctly Opted In' Whois DB - That's the issue that has been raised.

Out of interest; what 'formal tests' does Nominet apply to opt someone back in?

 

[Jac]

As an UK individual who opted-out I could host anything I like on the domain name ? Warez and Pr0n..........

Therefore the "rule" should apply to the domain name and not what is hosted on it! Which the ISP is responsible for not Nominet.

The Terms and Conditions pre-define "consumer".

‘consumer' – You are a consumer if you are an individual not registering, using or planning to use the domain name as part of a business, trade or profession.

You cannot be a consumer if you are dealing in warez or porn. IMO it does not equate.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Whois-Search]

Ahh we are back to that term "consumer"

 

[olebean]

The Terms and Conditions pre-define "consumer".

‘consumer' – You are a consumer if you are an individual not registering, using or planning to use the domain name as part of a business, trade or profession.

You cannot be a consumer if you are dealing in warez or porn. IMO it does not equate.

Regards
James Conaghan

Exactly!

If You

Oh, with regards to personal names, again I repeat it, Nominet will not allow opt out for "very personal" domain names, which are childrens names

 

[sneezycheese]

Ahh we are back to that term "consumer"

...Funny you should mention that, as I've put in a formal complaint to have Nominet's Crystal Mark rescinded.

PM me if anyone feels the need to join in.

 

[olebean]

You may be right; it isn't fair; but in general, you don't get punished for breaking a rule, you get punished for being caught breaking it. If someone decides to complain about rule breaking are they wrong to do so? Maybe they aren't being fair, but they aren't wrong either, because (as I keep saying) rules apply to everyone equally, even me. There are legitimate reasons why the whois is as it is.



There are also legitimate reasons why these things may have to be done faster than a month.

Here is a story another Nominet member posted on nom-steer today. He gave me his permission to use it. I quote it verbatim.



Not suggesting at all that anyone on this forum is up to criminal shennanigans, but the above story is another reason why the 'powers that be' want to see Nominet maintain a correctly opted-in whois.

Regards
James Conaghan

Totally spurious arguement, data protection act allows criminal activity to be reported etc

 

[Jac]

And I will repeat what I put:

Sometimes people like the PAB won't see past the term "user registrants"
unless you give examples which are often personal i.e. "how would you like
it if it happened to you".

On here (Nom-Steer) people will either dismiss it or make some pedantic comment.

I was merely asking how clear the whois opt-out rule is and why is it
abused.

A user registrant to me is a person who registers a domain name for use in personal or business capacity. It could be an individual, a sole trader or a company or corporation. In the latter two examples, the company is the user registrant or more correctly, the end user registrant. If someone owns 10,000 domain names and points them all at PPC sites and makes loadsa dosh out of doing so, then I do not personally regard them as an end user registrant. They are a domainer.

The whois opt-out is enshrined in 11.2 of the Terms and Conditions: "For these purposes we will publish your name and (unless you are a consumer and choose to opt out) your address, but not your phone or fax number or e-mail address" and "you are a consumer if you are an individual not registering, using or planning to use the domain name as part of a business, trade or profession".

I will be blunt and say I don't know if this is clear enough or not but there seems to be only a sub-set of registrants complaning about it. Why don't you raise it as a question at the Nominet/Acorn meeting tomorrow?

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Jac]

Totally spurious arguement, data protection act allows criminal activity to be reported etc

If I suggested you had to keep breathing to stay alive, you'd probably hold your breath whilst protesting it was a spurious argument. Good grief man, do you ever allow for the possibility (small as you may think it is) that you just might be wrong in something?

Regards
James Conagham

 

[Jac]

Exactly!

If You

Oh, with regards to personal names, again I repeat it, Nominet will not allow opt out for "very personal" domain names, which are childrens names

As I do not know the children's names you refer to, or in what context you are registering them, I cannot offer any guidance. If you are at Nominet tomorrow, I assume you will be raising this as an issue? If you are right in your contentions, I will be the first to support you.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[olebean]

A user registrant to me is a person who registers a domain name for use in personal or business capacity. It could be an individual, a sole trader or a company or corporation. In the latter two examples, the company is the user registrant or more correctly, the end user registrant. If someone owns 10,000 domain names and points them all at PPC sites and makes loadsa dosh out of doing so, then I do not personally regard them as an end user registrant. They are a domainer.

The whois opt-out is enshrined in 11.2 of the Terms and Conditions: "For these purposes we will publish your name and (unless you are a consumer and choose to opt out) your address, but not your phone or fax number or e-mail address" and "you are a consumer if you are an individual not registering, using or planning to use the domain name as part of a business, trade or profession".

I will be blunt and say I don't know if this is clear enough or not but there seems to be only a sub-set of registrants complaning about it. Why don't you raise it as a question at the Nominet/Acorn meeting tomorrow?

Regards
James Conaghan

Considering what I have read, it appears Nominet never really wanted to apply data protection principle to whois in the first place..... I am loathed to debate issues "that type" of "personal nature" with them....

 

[olebean]

If I suggested you had to keep breathing to stay alive, you'd probably hold your breath whilst protesting it was a spurious argument. Good grief man, do you ever allow for the possibility (small as you may think it is) that you just might be wrong in something?

Regards
James Conagham

James

Not when an arguement is so seriously fawed....

 

[Jac]

...I don't think anyone is disagreeing with what you've just said,

Erm... olebean did.

that's the point - Having a 'Correctly Opted In' Whois DB - That's the issue that has been raised.

Out of interest; what 'formal tests' does Nominet apply to opt someone back in?

Unless all registrants are truthful at the time of registration, you will probably never have a correctly opted in whois. If we want Nominet to police every single registration, this will inevitably result in delays to all registrations and I would suggest add to the cost per domain name. The only sensible way seems to be for Nominet to act when it notices something is wrong, or when a breach of the opt-out is pointed out to them.

On a side note, it may well be that registrants (in general) do not necessarily understand what is expected of them when registering a domain name, and this is something that is part of the communications drive I hope to see Nominet embark on shortly.

That said, there will always be someone intentionally abusing the system and that applies to any system.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Hazel Pegg]

Exactly!

If You

Oh, with regards to personal names, again I repeat it, Nominet will not allow opt out for "very personal" domain names, which are childrens names

What does 'very personal' mean?

My kids own domain names and they are opted out of the WHOIS.

I don't think that I (they) are breaking the rules.

Hazel