UK whois protection

[Whois-Search]

Since people tend to abuse the Nominet whois opt-out service:

http://www.nominet.org.uk/other/whois/faq/#opt

(to hide their address when they are not individual status).

Why doesn't Nominet allow registers (Nominet members) to sell/provide whois protection services ?

A bit like these for .com and .net:

https://www.enom.com/help/faq_idprotect.asp

http://domainsbyproxy.com/

http://www.privacypost.com/

 

[bb99]

I'm not sure if Nominet's T&C's specifically disallow this sort of thing (too early to read through them), but then again I don't think they're particularly compatible with them.

Off the top of my head the potential issues that I can see with it are:

- If you wish to apply the service to an existing domain it's going to cost you the domain transfer fee on top of the "privacy" fee that the provider charges.

- There would need to be some quite good legal protection for registrants as the domain name would be in someone else's name. What if the privacy company went bust...

- There would potentially need to be postal forwarding for things like DRSs, stroppy letters from solicitors, general enquiries, etc.

- If there was, say, a DRS then would the Nominet T&C's allow the ultimate registrant (rather than the privacy company) to respond?


Looking at the bigger picture, we have to ask ourselves why someone would want to use a service like this. It offers more protection than the (much abused) individual's address opt out as it would conceal both the name and address of the registrant.

Some people will immediately smell foul play as one use would be for a "domainer" to, for example, hide their ownership of multiple TM domains so that they couldn't be used against them in a DRS for a generic name.

However I suppose there are legitimate uses:

- Brand protection (ie if Google registers gwhatever.co.uk then they can hide their name to avoid news of their new service getting out before it's properly announced).

- Privacy protection (from stalkers etc).


Personally I think it's a good idea to allow this sort of service... But there is a risk that some cowboys would do it and the end result of this could potentially be quite damaging.

 

[Jay Daley]

Why doesn't Nominet allow registers (Nominet members) to sell/provide whois protection services ?

Because this has been discussed at great length by the Policy Advisory Board who have decided that they want correct registrant data. Please refer to our web site for details.

 

[Whois-Search]

Because this has been discussed at great length by the Policy Advisory Board who have decided that they want correct registrant data. Please refer to our web site for details.

And everyone that uses the whois opt-out is correct ? how many members of this forum have you corrected ? how many do you correct a week ?

 

[olebean]

And everyone that uses the whois opt-out is correct ? how many members of this forum have you corrected ? how many do you correct a week ?

Hoey

The word "correct" is inappropriate (I am not picking) the word alter would be better, considering they do get it wrong!

You also suggest Opting Out is abused, i agree, data mining is a huge issue! And in Jays words yes some people are professionals.....

Using Jay as an example, I do not see his home contact details splashed all over. Should I take it that Jay should not be taken seriously as a professional?

OB

 

[Jac]

Hoey

The word "correct" is inappropriate (I am not picking) the word alter would be better, considering they do get it wrong!

You also suggest Opting Out is abused, i agree, data mining is a huge issue! And in Jays words yes some people are professionals.....

Using Jay as an example, I do not see his home contact details splashed all over. Should I take it that Jay should not be taken seriously as a professional?

OB

Er... olebean...

You all know where Jay works and he has also given Acorn Domains his email address [email protected]. YOU won't even privately email me your surname for the Nominet meeting tomorrow when everyone else has. Hello?!

By all means complain, but can you make it about things that Jay (or Nominet) is actually doing wrong.

I'll say it again: The rules apply to all registrants equally, even me. If you don't want a private address showing on the whois you are at liberty to organise a business c/o address. (Some Tag Holders offer a c/o service.) You just have to be easily contactable in case of necessity.

That said, the issue of 5 days warning is definitely under discussion and I am hopeful this will be implemented sooner rather than later. (IMO it is a fair point.)

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[rob]

YOU won't even privately email me your surname for the Nominet meeting tomorrow when everyone else has. Hello?!

Some people dont have surnames. eg. Batman, Superman, Superted etc and could be potential stakeholders so need a system that does accept that surely?

 

[Jac]

And everyone that uses the whois opt-out is correct ? how many members of this forum have you corrected ? how many do you correct a week ?

From my own viewpoint (and because I ask Nominet these things) I would say there are more ordinary/user registrants opted back in every week than there are people on this forum. Nominet only acts on complaints received and there is no conspiracy on Nominet's side to target one specific registrant group no matter what the more cynical among us want to believe. The rules apply to everyone equally.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Whois-Search]

Just out of interest why is a "UK individual" allowed to have whois opt-out ? What gives them more right than any business ? now that isn't the same for all.

Also if all this effort goes in to correcting the status why have it at all ?

Or why allow the registrant to set it and not have it set by Nominet after signing an agreement ? I know how they love forms

 

[Jac]

Just out of interest why is a "UK individual" allowed to have whois opt-out ? What gives them more right than any business ? now that isn't the same for all.

As far as I remember (goes back to 2002) there are different Data Protection rules for consumers and businesses including sole traders and the Information Commissioner gave Nominet a great deal of advice on the whois and consumer opt-out. There was also some suggestion (if I remember correctly) from DTI and other government agencies that they wanted to see a contact address ('address for service') for businesses on the whois. So it wasn't big brother Nominet who arbitrarily decided on the expanded whois, it was done under consultation with outside bodies who all seem satisifed that this is the way it should be.

As an aside, ICANN is currently considering opt out on its gTLD whois, but it is still only relevant to consumers. Businesses will still not have a right to opt out.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[aqls]

Nominet only acts on complaints received
Regards
James Conaghan

When you say that, are you saying that Nominet only acts on complaints received?

I have just seen what looks like a fully fledged business being run on a domain that has opt out - and rubbish registrant - details.

Does this mean that it will only change if I or anyone who knows about this issue reports it?

Is it my duty as a stakeholder to go around and find such sites and tell you when I find them?

And is this what Nominet relies on to comply with their own rules.

-aqls-

 

[olebean]

Er... olebean...

You all know where Jay works and he has also given Acorn Domains his email address [email protected]. YOU won't even privately email me your surname for the Nominet meeting tomorrow when everyone else has. Hello?!

By all means complain, but can you make it about things that Jay (or Nominet) is actually doing wrong.

I'll say it again: The rules apply to all registrants equally, even me. If you don't want a private address showing on the whois you are at liberty to organise a business c/o address. (Some Tag Holders offer a c/o service.) You just have to be easily contactable in case of necessity.

That said, the issue of 5 days warning is definitely under discussion and I am hopeful this will be implemented sooner rather than later. (IMO it is a fair point.)

Regards
James Conaghan

James

Unless you are saying Jay lives at Nominet and all his activities no mater what they are, are in fact Nominet related and he has no "personal life"? So I think you should read my thread correctly.

Not emailing my surname is my right to chose when and if I will provide it.

 

[Whois-Search]

James,

Ok lets say I sent a complaint to Nominet about your conaghan.me.uk which you have set to opt-out:

http://195.66.240.211/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=conaghan.me.uk

And said that because you have the address of Name Dropper on it and get paid PAB expenses your making money.

And they agreed......

Which status would they change it to ?

Also at which point does a domain name become a "business"....... say if you had conaghan.me.uk parked at a parking page.

 

[Jac]

When you say that, are you saying that Nominet only acts on complaints received?

I have just seen what looks like a fully fledged business being run on a domain that has opt out - and rubbish registrant - details.

Does this mean that it will only change if I or anyone who knows about this issue reports it?

Is it my duty as a stakeholder to go around and find such sites and tell you when I find them?

And is this what Nominet relies on to comply with their own rules.

-aqls-

aqls

No; it is not your duty as a stakeholder to go around finding incorrectly opted out domains, but quite a few stakeholders, including some from fora like this, contact Nominet to complain about incorrect opt out (and other stuff). No doubt some of these complaints emanate from jealously or spite, but if the opt-out rule is being broken Nominet has a duty to act. However, Nominet does not do it pro-actively or with any malice aforethought. It's just that the opt-out rule applies to everyone; equally.

Nominet does not police or check each and every website. If you are suggesting Nominet should pro-actively look at every single website attached to a .uk domain name (and lest we forget there are often multiples of subdomains running off 2nd level domains) then I would hazard a guess the logistics would make this impractical.

Having said all that, to show good faith, I am happy to ask dah management; at the Nominet/Acorn Domains meeting tomorrow; if this can or cannot be done or if it is impractical for the reasons I just stated. (I will get back to you.)

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[aqls]

I am not pushing for it.

I am suggesting that the whole policy is probably unworkable.

-aqls-

 

[Jac]

James,

Ok lets say I sent a complaint to Nominet about your conaghan.me.uk which you have set to opt-out:

http://195.66.240.211/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=conaghan.me.uk

And said that because you have the address of Name Dropper on it and get paid PAB expenses your making money.

And they agreed......

Which status would they change it to ?

Also at which point does a domain name become a "business"....... say if you had conaghan.me.uk parked at a parking page.

I do not trade from or under conaghan.me.uk. My work with the PAB is done as an individual and as an elected individual PAB member, and it is done on behalf of the community. IE: there is no recompense involved in the conaghan.me.uk domain and no deliberate attempt to mislead the registry or anyone else.

If www.conaghan.me.uk pointed at a PPC from which I was earning a remuneration (by ad revenue) then I personally believe it should be opted back in.

Incidentally, Conaghan is my family name and is very personal to me.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[olebean]

If www.conaghan.me.uk pointed at a PPC from which I was earning a remuneration

Regards
James Conaghan

James

"I" or earning doesn't come into the equation

 

[Jac]

James

"I" or earning doesn't come into the equation

Okay then... instead of "I" read "if the domain name was earning". It's always the same sometimes.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Jac]

I am not pushing for it.

I am suggesting that the whole policy is probably unworkable.

-aqls-

I don't quite see why you think the policy is unworkable. The policy states what is proper and improper use of opt-out. If someone somewhere points out (to Nominet) that the opt-out is being incorrectly applied, Nominet investigates and corrects the whois if necessary. Howls of protest have been heard about lack of warning, so Nominet is now looking at allowing the 5 days requested.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[aqls]

99% of opt-outs will remain opted out i.e. not reported.

Only those at the receiving end a report from probably malicious or jealousy related motive have to have their personal details spread across the web.

Doesn't sound fair to me.

However - I think the 5 day opt out sounds like a good idea, though I think it should be a month's notice because of hols etc.

-aqls-