.UK - A botch?

[mdb]

Don't you think it will increase the attractiveness of the uk namespace when .uk is in competition with all the new gtld's .

No, not really, for the same reason .us never caught on in the US. .com was the establised norm, just like .co.uk is the established norm in the UK.

I think the jury's still out on whether the new gtld's will have sustained longevity as a desired namespace. I've no doubt people are going to jump on them in the same way they jumped on .us .co. etc etc.

It will take years (probably five) for .uk to be the established norm in the UK. Granted, there might be marginal interest from an international audience, but the way it stands the 99.9% of people who will really benefit from this are domainers. I fail to see how businesses that use the .co.uk namespace will see any added benefit.

I think as far as business opportunities go, it will only increase the value of good unused .co.uk's because of the namespace legacy. In the future no company worth their salt would be satisfied owning one or the other, they'll want both, whether that's to protect against brand contamination or for vanity's sake.

We all know the domains as a pair (.co.uk & .uk) will be worth way more than an extra fiver.

 

[websaway]

No, not really, for the same reason .us never caught on in the US. .com was the establised norm, just like .co.uk is the established norm in the UK.

I think the jury's still out on whether the new gtld's will have sustained longevity as a desired namespace. I've no doubt people are going to jump on them in the same way they jumped on .us .co. etc etc.

It will take years (probably five) for .uk to be the established norm in the UK. Granted, there might be marginal interest from an international audience, but the way it stands the 99.9% of people who will really benefit from this are domainers. I fail to see how businesses that use the .co.uk namespace will see any added benefit.

I think as far as business opportunities go, it will only increase the value of good unused .co.uk's because of the namespace legacy. In the future no company worth their salt would be satisfied owning one or the other, they'll want both, whether that's to protect against brand contamination or for vanity's sake.

We all know the domains as a pair (.co.uk & .uk) will be worth way more than an extra fiver.

Not disagreeing with a lot of what you say.

 

[mdb]

And how does that update vans, catalogues, stationery, etc?

? The van displays "www.website.co.uk" and that's what the customer keys in on their tablet. That could be next summer, a week, a month, 5 years or 10 years later - you land on www.website.uk... Whenever you want to print new letterheads or paint the van you can choose the .co.uk or the .uk.

Nominet couldn't win.

I disagree, it could have been managed better. As far as I can see there's not even any provision for trademarks or companies registered with Companies House... Further proof of support for domainers.

You don't have to wait five years, but if you want to take up to five years you can. That should suit the vast majority of businesses, surely.

Why not wait 6 years? In my view 5 is the same as 6 as 7 or 8 years.

It is what it is. The .uk is coming.

aGREED, but it would have been nice to see competition and opportunity really addressed in the launch instead of taking care of the boys...

They are very unlikely to have in house tech expertise and for many, a 301 redirect might as well be brain surgery. They also won't have the funds to trash all their marketing collateral and start again.

Sorry Edwin I think that's cobblers. It's not brain surgery. Instituting a 301 IS a lot easier and would cost a hell of a lot less then embarking on a rebrand. If you know how to design a website you should know how to put a 301 in place. If you don't know you Google it. I'm not saying that person is necessarily the company owner, but if you've got a website pleading ignorance is as pointless as saying I didn't know the speed limit.

With a 5 year window, they can do something about the .uk gradually and in stages, for example reprint brochures when their stock runs out, repaint the van when the existing logo has faded, etc.

I refer to my point above, why 5 years, why not 6, 7 or 8? You could do what you argue in a month or 2 years.

If Nominet were serious about the 5 year rebrand argument they could have emailed or written to every registrant and told them about the 301. They could have even provided instructions.

 

[Murray]

Just out of interest, what would have been your preferred way of introducing .uk mdb?.

 

[Edwin]

I disagree, it could have been managed better. As far as I can see there's not even any provision for trademarks or companies registered with Companies House... Further proof of support for domainers.

Over 60% of all UK companies are sole traders, and they won't be registered at Companies House. Nominet's V3 protects their interests.

Probably no more than 7-8% of all .co.uk domains are owned by the contingent you might term "domainers" - and actually I think it's more like 5%. So any solution needs to be analysed outside the narrow context of this forum, and considered to see how well it protects the mass of end-users that make up the overwhelming majority of .co.uk users.

 

[Edwin]

Why not wait 6 years? In my view 5 is the same as 6 as 7 or 8 years.

Nominet still (theoretically) might. As I said here http://www.dnjournal.com/archive/lowdown/2013/dailyposts/20131121.htm

Given that the "right of refusal" is now set at 5 years, this will give companies and domain investors plenty of time to evaluate the take-up of .uk and choose to exercise their option to acquire the matching .uk at a timing of their convenience. It will also potentially save eligible businesses a significant amount of money that might otherwise need to be spent on "warehousing" names until it's clear whether they want to use them or not.

The difference between the V2 period (6 months) and the final five year period represents up to 4.5 years worth of reg fees, i.e. a total of approximately £19/domain ($30/domain) saved on a wholesale basis vs. V2, and significantly more on a retail basis. (That figure is a maximum, and assumes that the option to register the domain is taken up on the very last day of the 5 year period).

While the following is speculation on my part, it's also long enough for Nominet to see if the security concerns (phishing, misdirected emails etc.) materialize to any great extent and if so, I presume they might still have the option of extending that 5 year period to keep the domain names in question out of general availability and so preclude any such security issues from occurring. I have no indication that they would choose to do so, but the timing is sufficiently long so as to afford Nominet the flexibility of a real evaluation of the new extension "in situ" in the real world.

 

[Edwin]

If Nominet were serious about the 5 year rebrand argument they could have emailed or written to every registrant and told them about the 301. They could have even provided instructions.

That's a strange thing to say. We have no knowledge of what Nominet is going to do to inform eligible .uk registrants. They may well do all that and more when the time comes in summer 2014. But chastising them NOW about a future that is 8-9 months away and that we have no current insight into is very odd. This isn't Minority Report - we have no way of predicting "future crimes" against .uk registrants.

 

[mdb]

Just out of interest, what would have been your preferred way of introducing .uk mdb?.

Honestly, I couldn't answer that in detail. I'd need more than a day to think about something as important as this, bearing in mind it will impact millions and for years to come.

What I would say is that there should have been genuine opportunity for people, especially the young who have been so eloquently f***** over by the hierarchy of modern day society. They deserve a fair crack at the whip - they might not have had the opportunity over the last 16 years. I do think that the 5 year sunrise does stifel opportunity because lets not kid ourselves by this time next year there will be 10,000s of good .uk domains parked.

Over 60% of all UK companies are sole traders, and they won't be registered at Companies House. Nominet's V3 protects their interests.

I'm not saying it should have been the only provision, but I think it's reasonable it should have been taken into account... maybe it was and Nominet decided against it?

Given that the "right of refusal" is now set at 5 years, this will give companies and domain investors plenty of time to evaluate the take-up of .uk and choose to exercise their option to acquire the matching .uk at a timing of their convenience.

You couldn't have argued my point any clearer.

But chastising them NOW about a future that is 8-9 months away and that we have no current insight into is very odd.

You're nitpicking. I'm arguing about what they presented in their press release yesterday.

 

[Edwin]

What I would say is that there should have been genuine opportunity for people, especially the young who have been so eloquently f***** over by the hierarchy of modern day society. They deserve a fair crack at the whip - they might not have had the opportunity over the last 16 years. I do think that the 5 year sunrise does stifel opportunity because lets not kid ourselves by this time next year there will be 10,000s of good .uk domains parked.

That's me out of this debate. Nothing I can say can trump "misplaced entitlement" since it's not based on real-world rationality. If the only argument for something is "it's not fair", that's no argument at all.

 

[johnmquail]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb View Post
What I would say is that there should have been genuine opportunity for people, especially the young who have been so eloquently f***** over by the hierarchy of modern day society. They deserve a fair crack at the whip - they might not have had the opportunity over the last 16 years. I do think that the 5 year sunrise does stifel opportunity because lets not kid ourselves by this time next year there will be 10,000s of good .uk domains parked.

That's me out of this debate. Nothing I can say can trump "misplaced entitlement".

+1

May as well say "I'm pissed I didn't get the opportunity to register a great .uk ahead of the equivalent .co.uk registrant that was years ahead of me in the game"

 

[mdb]

That's me out of this debate. Nothing I can say can trump "misplaced entitlement" since it's not based on real-world rationality. If the only argument for something is "it's not fair", that's no argument at all.

It depends who you're referring to as the ones who have a "misplaced entitlement".

The only people I can see as having a "misplaced entitlement" are the domainers sat on a trove of good domains. I don't see why that's a good reason to entitle them to consolidate even as much as 5% of the .uk namespace over such a long period. Nothing against them competing - that's fair.

If you mean "misplaced entitlement" as in it's not fair poor little Johnny couldn't register website.uk, that's a poor comeback. I never once said little Johnny should be entitled to anything. I've simply argued there should be an opportunity (although realistically he would probably lose) at registering a .uk domain as much as you or me. And if little Johnny registers it in bad faith let it go through DRS.

 

[Edwin]

It depends who you're referring to as the ones who have a "misplaced entitlement".

The only people I can see as having a "misplaced entitlement" are the domainers sat on a trove of good domains. I don't see why that's a good reason to entitle them to consolidate even as much as 5% of the .uk namespace over such a long period. Nothing against them competing - that's fair.

If you mean "misplaced entitlement" as in it's not fair poor little Johnny couldn't register website.uk, that's a poor comeback. I never once said little Johnny should be entitled to anything. I've simply argued there should be an opportunity (although realistically he would probably lose) at registering a .uk domain as much as you or me. And if little Johnny registers it in bad faith let it go through DRS.

You seem to have literally no idea, not even an inkling, of what "sitting on a trove of good domains" actually entails in practice.

To sit on thousands of decent generics, you HAVE to have invested a huge amount of:

A) Money (at least 6-7 figures or more in acquisition, registration and renewal fees for the larger portfolio holders)

AND

B) Time (I've invested well over the 10,000 hours into domaining that many consider is a minimum requisite to become "expert" in any subject)

AND

C) Effort (to learn what makes a good/bad domain, to track down and fight for good dropping domains, form partnerships with drop catchers, code drop catching scripts, build word lists, track down end user sellers and buyers, etc. etc. etc.)

AND

D) Faith (to keep renewing domains that don't sell year after year after year, even though they're nothing but a minus column on the balance sheet)

AND

E) Foresight (to get in early even when domains weren't on anyone's radar screen, to take a punt, to expend A) and B) and C) while holding D) etc.)

But under your "logic" all that should be swept away because somebody coming to the domain party 20 years too late.

It's like begrudging a Wimbledon champion their winnings because "anyone can play tennis" without taking into consideration the 5-6 hours a day they've put into practicing, 7 days a week, since they were 4 or 5 years old, and the fantastic cost (both in monetary terms and in commitment) that level of training entailed.

 

[philipp]

I still say it's a load of b*ll*cks.

We're all adults here, may as well say 'bollocks' if that's what you mean.

P.

 

[Skinner]

Haven't you heard, there are 1,000 totally new extension including .london / .wales and more coming, go take your crack of the whip on DAY 1, the same as some did 5-10-15-20 yrs ago on .*.uk.

What I would say is that there should have been genuine opportunity for people, especially the young who have been so eloquently f***** over by the hierarchy of modern day society. They deserve a fair crack at the whip - they might not have had the opportunity over the last 16 years.

 

[Edwin]

Haven't you heard, there are 1,000 totally new extension including .london / .wales and more coming, go take your crack of the whip on DAY 1, the same as some did 5-10-15-20 yrs ago on .*.uk.

True - an opportunity which is also a big part of Nominet's rationale for .uk.

 

[bulkcorn]

.........

What I would say is that there should have been genuine opportunity for people, especially the young who have been so eloquently f***** over by the hierarchy of modern day society. They deserve a fair crack at the whip - they might not have had the opportunity over the last 16 years. I do think that the 5 year sunrise does stifel opportunity because lets not kid ourselves by this time next year there will be 10,000s of good .uk domains parked.

......

....................

But under your "logic" all that should be swept away because somebody coming to the domain party 20 years too late.
.........

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I give mdb credit for pointing out where the shoe pinches (him???)!

I'd like to have founded Microsoft but Bill Gates got there before me! :lol: :lol: :lol: I arrived on earth at least 20 years later than Bill!

 

[foz]

Having a short sunrise and possible virgin landrush would have been disastrous for late comers. Drop catching scripts would have been running hot for days, thus not leaving much on the table for end users.

 

[mdb]

You seem to have literally no idea, not even an inkling, of what "sitting on a trove of good domains" actually entails in practice.

You don't need to get personal, and with respect Edwin, you're wrong. Just because I'm not active on Acorn I've been in the "web industry" a long time. I think I have a reasonable insight in what's involved in drop catching. Yes, I know you guys have 10,000s invested in terms of pound notes and hours in monitoring your lists, servers, updating your scripts, etc. Full respect to you all. I expect it's a tough labourious job, and sometimes the rewards are great, sometimes they're not, then there's everything inbetween. I think the industry will only get tougher and tougher, and for that reason it's something I chose not to get involved in because of the finite amount of "good domains" and the ever increasing amount of competition, not to mention DRS.

That said I think domainers own what they've worked hard for. Obviously I'm going to be a minority on Acorn when I say I don't think just owning a .co.uk should in itself offer a carte blanche five year choice on whether they should be able to register the .uk equivalent. I'm a big boy and I expect what I'm arguing to be unpopular on here.

But under your "logic" all that should be swept away because somebody coming to the domain party 20 years too late.

No? I never said "other" people who aren't domainers should have any automatic rights because they're late to the party. No one's rights should be swept away, not domainers or the "other" people's.

What about the rights of the sole trader that set up on a .org.uk because the .co.uk domain was snapped up and held to an unrealistically high ransom? They are ruled out of a chance to register in the .uk namespace. Is that fair? Was that thought through?

Also, as I've already said there's no way of knowing yet if .uk will become the dominant UK domain of choice. I still come across people who think owning the .com is more preferable over the .co.uk. Us Brits might prefer the legacy of .co.uk? Google said they'd treat .co domains like .coms, yet there's very little appetite - you can't even shift good xxx.co domains for $20. .us domains don't carry hardly any weight stacked up against the .com. People like what they know, especially when it comes to the scary world of IT.

It's like begrudging a Wimbledon champion their winnings because "anyone can play tennis" without taking into consideration the 5-6 hours a day they've put into practicing, 7 days a week, since they were 4 or 5 years old, and the fantastic cost (both in monetary terms and in commitment) that level of training entailed.

I'm not sure I follow your analogy... I'm not begrudging a Wimbledon champion their winnings because "anyone can play tennis", I'm begrudging the championship itself. Maybe I am begrudging the winner simply on the basis that the tournament was only open to professionals who have years invested in their backhand. The 98% of ther other peeps who can play tennis aren't allowed to step foot in SW19...

The spirit of your post where you say I have "no idea" obviously signals you feel entitled to the .uk namespace solely because you've got so much invested in .co.uk, and I (obviously) disagree on the grounds that it doesn't offer a progressive opportunity to introduce more competition into the UK domain arena, which is how it's being peddled. I think it's fair if it was part of a criteria that should be taken into consideration... I think it's also fair to say we can agree to disagree.

I would also say that as an investor in anything, be it shares, bonds, gold or domains you surely must agree that you are at the mercy of the market, and the only thing that's guaranteed is that markets will change. If I invest 100k in a company and I lose 80% of my investment because a better competing product came along, I can't jump up and down in the CEO's office shouting, Do you know how much I lost! Do you know how much research I put into buying this stock!

Haven't you heard, there are 1,000 totally new extension including .london / .wales and more coming, go take your crack of the whip on DAY 1, the same as some did 5-10-15-20 yrs ago on .*.uk.

I give mdb credit for pointing out where the shoe pinches (him???)!

I'm not a domainer guys, I won't be chasing anything ... except the domains I run websites on. It might be hard to believe but I'm championing the kids in school / university who want to start a business without having to fork out £xxx / £x,xxx before they've typed <?php I think they should be given a similar opportunity that you guys once had, albeit I'm under no illusion that they'd probably still lose.

Having a short sunrise and possible virgin landrush would have been disastrous for late comers.

Agreed, but there's a difference between a short sunrise period and five years. What other TLD introduction had anything remotely like a 5 year sunrise period? I can't recall one.

Anyway, enough for one night, I'm going to find my inkling. Night folks.

 

[Edwin]

The spirit of your post where you say I have "no idea" obviously signals you feel entitled to the .uk namespace solely because you've got so much invested in .co.uk

No, absolutely not. Just thought I'd make sure that's "on the record".

Beyond that, as you say, let's also agree to disagree.

 

[Skinner]

They can get the same opportunity on other extensions, it doesn't need to be .uk namespace. People who was there 20 yrs ago picked a horse and the horse done good, so the new comers pick their horse and see how it goes, if they have foresight and skill they strike it rich, otherwise like I have done on .me.uk, .me, .co, .tv, .st, .eu and .mobi and to some extent .org they will lose money

If this wasn't .uk it was .en.uk or .eng.uk or hell even .en or .brit, I'd be behind you fully and not expect ANY favours.

However .co.uk was sold as the prime real estate, and now they effectively building a 2nd story ontop of your land and billing it as the new premium real estate.