The value of securing sets of alternative domains?

[Bailey]

Totally agree with getting the plural and hyphenated versions... and in .com, .co.uk and even .org.uk and .me.uk and even .net...

At the end of the day this is just logic.

Oh dear! - It's going to be a long road :roll: I guess your not planning on selling domains

 

[Blossom]

To be honest, from reading this forum as a non-domainer, I think most people here look for excuses to buy as many domains as possible.

You could go on buying domain names forever with hyphens, synonyms, complementary phrases, plurals etc.

Lots of people just don't know when to let go, and they still hold on to the idea that they can sell a name/set of names for a lot of money even when everyone else has pointed out it's only worth reg fee. Multiply that by the numbers of domains that a lot of members here have, and that's a lot of money going on renewals.

In a way, it's one of the things that has stopped me getting into domaining.

 

[websaway]

To be honest, from reading this forum as a non-domainer, I think most people here look for excuses to buy as many domains as possible.

You could go on buying domain names forever with hyphens, synonyms, complementary phrases, plurals etc.

Lots of people just don't know when to let go, and they still hold on to the idea that they can sell a name/set of names for a lot of money even when everyone else has pointed out it's only worth reg fee. Multiply that by the numbers of domains that a lot of members here have, and that's a lot of money going on renewals.

In a way, it's one of the things that has stopped me getting into domaining.

These are good points, shouldn't stop you domaining though, recognising this is half the battle.

 

[Edwin]

Is there anything you do to inform customers of the advantages of multiple domains or are they generally already set on the idea? If those who do buy multiples have clear strategic agendas regarding their sites in terms of that they are making informed decisions based on clear perceived advantages, as oppose to someone looking for a good domain for a site, then shouldn't we be doing more to educate customers to make informed decisions to buy more portfolios?

Generally they've asked about one domain name, and when I send them the price quote I've said "Did you know that we also own XYZ?" where XYZ is a plural, singular, synonym etc. and I've then given a price for the XYZ domain(s) plus a discounted price if they buy all the domains.

Probably 25% of the time, if I get a sale at all, the buyer will go for the multiple domain option rather than simply the domain they were asking about in the first place.

Note: we're generally talking about £x,xxx sales.

 

[websaway]

Knowing what to buy and what not to buy, what to sell and what not to sell, ( yes often it's not good to sell a name, especially if you value it higher than the buyer or it's future potential holds more than the current value ) is most of the knowledge required for success within the industry.
Anticipating what will happen in the future is what's made fortunes for individuals, sometimes there actions have actually moulded the future of the industry. Fortunately there is no scientific right and wrong way of trading anything, it's all down to intuition, experience, common sense, and market forces.
I saw a van the other day with the domain name SunBlinds co uk and won't forget the name of that company in a hurry, often there's no need to compicate matters, keep it simple, if it's remotely economically possible to get the pure product name of what the company trades it's - bingo !

 

[willbon]

Oh dear! - It's going to be a long road :roll: I guess your not planning on selling domains

You'd like to challenge the logic?

 

[Bailey]

You'd like to challenge the logic?

Of Course, I think it healthy and wonderful to be able to call a spade-a-spade here at Acorn without it being seen as a personal slur or attack.

And of course Edwin has a knack for shaking a can of worms and standing back. However. It's now Friday night and I'm of out for a beer or ten-it would be terrible for all of us if you could summarise all our learnt understanding in a paragraph or two - And as i've said several times before my experience is 10 years gtld and 1 year ccld - And It is proving to be a different planet.(invested in both at the same time around 1999 on)

what I do think - from my brief time here is the Gtld model has a lot to teach those operating at the cctld level And I don't see that working the other way around. I would actually like to be wrong, don't forget this is my money we are talking about as well.

I'm looking forward to picking this thread back up over the weekend

 

[willbon]

Of Course, I think it healthy and wonderful to be able to call a spade-a-spade here at Acorn without it being seen as a personal slur or attack.

And of course Edwin has a knack for shaking a can of worms and standing back. However. It's now Friday night and I'm of out for a beer or ten-it would be terrible for all of us if you could summarise all our learnt understanding in a paragraph or two - And as i've said several times before my experience is 10 years gtld and 1 year ccld - And It is proving to be a different planet.(invested in both at the same time around 1999 on)

what I do think - from my brief time here is the Gtld model has a lot to teach those operating at the cctld level And I don't see that working the other way around. I would actually like to be wrong, don't forget this is my money we are talking about as well.

I'm looking forward to picking this thread back up over the weekend

I too am beerless... but look forward to the response!

I certainly don't mean to undermine your clearly better knowledge of the marketplace, however I'm a 'long-term' investor / developer and I do think there are merits to owning sets....

just one example... a business is a cat flap seller... if you owned catflap, cat-flap, catflaps, cat-flaps, catdoor (with similar as before), doorflap (same again)... and the list goes on a bit.... but if you owned those domains in ..co.uk, .com, .org.uk and .me uk then surely if you set up a number of different sites (different IP's etc etc...) then surely with correct SEO it would be hard to be beaten for ranking, type ins and an excellent marketing name....

... and the key being you have set up a real 'barrier to entry' for any of your competitors.... and in my estimation the reg fee of the large set of domains is generally worth it over having a competitor breathing down your neck all the time....

I think of domains from an end-user perspective and hope that what I'm thinking is correct.....

(Discuss!)

Have a great weekend!

Will

 

[willbon]

But to come back to the question....

' Do you think there's any kind of rule of thumb that can be applied to the value of "sets" of related domains?

Don't know about a rule of thumb... although that would be nice... but I think you ONLY get the true value for a domain when you have 'the set' and can offer the customer (domain end-user) a useful set that gives them competitive advantage in their market area.

** Disclaimer - this is only my opinion and I'm not saying that anyone else's opinion is wrong either! **

 

[websaway]

I too am beerless... but look forward to the response!

I certainly don't mean to undermine your clearly better knowledge of the marketplace, however I'm a 'long-term' investor / developer and I do think there are merits to owning sets....

just one example... a business is a cat flap seller... if you owned catflap, cat-flap, catflaps, cat-flaps, catdoor (with similar as before), doorflap (same again)... and the list goes on a bit.... but if you owned those domains in ..co.uk, .com, .org.uk and .me uk then surely if you set up a number of different sites (different IP's etc etc...) then surely with correct SEO it would be hard to be beaten for ranking, type ins and an excellent marketing name....

... and the key being you have set up a real 'barrier to entry' for any of your competitors.... and in my estimation the reg fee of the large set of domains is generally worth it over having a competitor breathing down your neck all the time....

I think of domains from an end-user perspective and hope that what I'm thinking is correct.....

(Discuss!)

Have a great weekend!

Will

Hi, good post, but I think Edwin is saying should you expand on the product name, automaticcatflaps co uk automatic-cat-flaps co uk etc. etc. of course the debate has no difinitive answer.

 

[willbon]

Hi, good post, but I think Edwin is saying should you expand on the product name, automaticcatflaps co uk automatic-cat-flaps co uk etc. etc. of course the debate has no difinitive answer.

I would vote yes. more market share as I see it... if the company expands into new markets, any search term domain acquired for that new market cuts out another player in my opinion... so offering the domain end user a 'better deal'

...perhaps with 'sets' we could see more lowly domain values pushed up simply by the fact that you own all or many of the keywords for your industry.

 

[Edwin]

Actually I wasn't talking about hyphenated vs hyphenated so much, more plural/singular and synonyms.

For example, 4posterbed/4posterbeds/fourposterbed/fourposterbeds

Now, clearly some of those 4 keyphrases may be "worth" more than others, but what's the value of completing the set of 4 and realising there's no other way for anyone to secure the exact match .co.uk domain name that describes that particular product?

 

[websaway]

Actually I wasn't talking about hyphenated vs hyphenated so much, more plural/singular and synonyms.

For example, 4posterbed/4posterbeds/fourposterbed/fourposterbeds

Now, clearly some of those 4 keyphrases may be "worth" more than others, but what's the value of completing the set of 4 and realising there's no other way for anyone to secure the exact match .co.uk domain name that describes that particular product?

For that example, assuming you are going to sell to an end user or you are an end user, it is of course a yes.

 

[Edwin]

Another example: motorbikehelmet/motorbikehelmets/motorcyclehelmet/motorcyclehelmets

Now the real question (in general, not just about the above example): assuming you have 3-of-4, how much should YOU invest in trying to complete the set? Is it worth an aftermarket buy? A decent swap? Or should you not sweat it.

 

[websaway]

Another example: motorbikehelmet/motorbikehelmets/motorcyclehelmet/motorcyclehelmets

Now the real question (in general, not just about the above example): assuming you have 3-of-4, how much should YOU invest in trying to complete the set? Is it worth an aftermarket buy? A decent swap? Or should you not sweat it.

You can only answer the principle of 4 being better than 3. The rest of your question is dependent on so many underlying factors that you need a real life situation to make a calculated decision.

 

[wb]

Worth completing a set if possible and if the keywords are good, but I'm not sure how much value it would actually add in terms of sales price.

I think an end user would just see any matching domains as a 'bonus' and expect to get them included in the deal anyway. However, it could sway a deal to happen which may otherwise not have.

 

[WealdDomains]

This is a fascinating topic. I don't have the experience to add value in terms of answering Edwin's original question, but I would like to have a go at some high-level classification based on what has been said so far and my own thoughts. This boils down to "what are the characteristics/attributes that mean several things make up a set ?".

1. same thing in different gTLDs/ccTLDs : .com/.co.uk/.eu
2. same thing with and without hyphenation
3. same thing with singular and plural versions (albeit with exceptions like "sheep")
4. same thing with the numeric aspect as a word and as a number : four/4
5. formal synonyms for the same thing : toilet/lavatory
6. shorthand / common usage terms for the same thing : motorbike/motorcycle
7. groups of things that typically coexist together in pairs, triplets, fours, dozens, etc : Matthew, Mark, Luke and John or John, Paul, George and Ringo
8. groups of things that typically exist in mutually exclusive forms, at least as far as the true end user is concerned - opposites, starsigns, professions, rooms of a house, languages, etc
9. groups of things that are individually relevant at different times during a year, lifetime, career, etc : birthday/anniversary, Christmas/Easter, child/adult/pensioner

... and of course ...

10. any combination of the above

This also gives rise to the complementary questions : when isn't it worth getting obsessed with chasing down every possible option and when does it matter to the potential purchaser ?

Regards,
David

 

[WealdDomains]

There are also specific geodomaining aspects to this, such as :

1. multiple things in one location : xxxxProperty, xxxxJobs, xxxxEvents, etc
2. parallel groupings : several adjacent London suburbs or several towns in Kent
3. compass groupings : XXXX and North/South/East/WestXXXX
4. hierarchical groupings : countries, counties, cities, towns, areas
5. codified groupings : postcodes, dialing codes, regions, etc

Regards,
David

 

[willbon]

Another example: motorbikehelmet/motorbikehelmets/motorcyclehelmet/motorcyclehelmets

Now the real question (in general, not just about the above example): assuming you have 3-of-4, how much should YOU invest in trying to complete the set? Is it worth an aftermarket buy? A decent swap? Or should you not sweat it.

I wrote a really cracking answer to this last night on my iPhone forum runner but then the thing wouldn't bloody send or save so here goes with it again (abridged)

I think you shouldn't sweat it as the market for domaining has not quite caught on to this... so it's not commonplace... yet!

These things need a pioneer..... Edwin?

Personally I think if you do get the 'missing link' at a reasonable price you should market the domains at their face value + 25% for the value of it being a set.

i think the customer would greatly benefit from the sets and will be willing to pay over the odds to secure their market position.

I came into domaining as an end user many years ago and learned from the best here on Acorn... but I've always seen much of what is said here is from a domainers perspective and not from the end user perspective - I consider things from purely a business and marketing function and see domains as another and more vital part of the marketing portfolio...

I think this is the way forward and I do hope it sets a precedent... and the world of domaining will be a better place!position.

Let us know how you get on will you Edwin!

Thanks

 

[alex]

I agree that this has certainly been an interesting topic to look through. I guess the fact is that it is extremely complicated to answer as there are so many variations in terms of related domains and in terms of both buyers and sellers' motives.

From my (end-user) perspective as a business I’ve been buying related domains for targeted traffic and to stop competitors – this includes variations on extension, hyphens and related terms. For me I saw it a suitable strategy that has mostly paid off. Others will buy/register a single domain for the sole use of that domain. Others, like me, will again buy domains to support their current domains, but may use them in different ways e.g. set up supporting sites or simply forward them. Similarly buying domains may just be vanity. So from a buyer’s perspective it is clear that motives vary and one cannot assume why a buyer will or will not want to purchase variations/related domains.

From a domain seller’s perspective I guess it is quite simple – does the buyer want one domain or one domain plus related domains? If the buyer sees benefit in buying variations/related domains then there is value in having sets. It is obvious that this happens, I have related sets for my business, Edwin has evidence from selling sets and I’m sure others will agree. However, it has also been noted by Bailey and others that there are relatively few examples where buyers have actually wanted more.

So, from a seller’s perspective, is holding domain sets value for money? In other words will holding sets add more value in terms of the lifetime of the domains than not holding them? If the sets held make more in the long-term than investing in completely unrelated domains, or indeed any other investment, then yes (assuming objectives are not short-term) as it is simply a question of the higher NPV and is thus logical. However, how often do buyers really want multiple sets and how much extra value is generated? There is not enough evidence yet to tell as what is needed is for a large number of sellers who have actively tried to sell multiples to inform us what the outcomes were. From what has been suggested here, the majority of the time buyers don’t want multiple domains and therefore it can be suggested that investing in multiples probably doesn’t generate a higher NPV than diversification, whether or not beneficial to end-users.

So after this longwinded post my personal conclusions are that there is not enough evidence to establish whether investing in variations generates the higher NPV. Although there are examples and plenty of reasons to think that it would (again I admit that my strategy as an end-user is to buy up variations etc), I feel that as a seller it would not be as worthwhile as a diversification strategy and it would certainly be more risky (generally speaking).