Report: Get involved or lose your .uk domains

[GreyWing]

As such, they're demonstrably already responding incredibly successfully to notifications from their registrars. There's a world of difference between a notification via that sort of channel and a cold sales call where no relationship exists.

Yes mate but also the fact that these registrars have cried wolf over the last few years.... you need .co you need .eu and so on everytime some new thing comes out. There is a lot of context of past events as to why people won't recognise the importance of this. How many people took up .co when they tried to sell it as dropping the .uk?

I think Stephen got his words mixed up a touch in "millions of domain owners" compared to "owners of millions of domains" in the report but I think it was innocent mistake that people have gone overboard about when a quick PM could have quickly resolved it.

 

[Stephen]

millions to million +

There are so many things wrong with what Nominet is doing, let's not go chasing the one mirage in the whole issue!

As I've said, if I can poke holes in the issue, a journalist on the prowl will drive a tank through it.

Anyway, I've made this particular point enough in this thread, so I'll stop belabouring it (and cede the floor to others). Take my advice or don't, at the end of the day I don't really care enough to keep going on about it.

Point taken and although I think that you are overplaying the .uk take up by businesses and rebranding within the 6 months, assuming a lot of the work will be done by the UK registrars and I think the news story will fade quickly after the .uk launch and it will not be on the front page anyway.

But you points are still valid and what others may make of the figures, so will change to :

" Owners of a Million or more .co.uk domains will not apply for new .uk,
as they will not know about it?"

 

[websaway]

You must be able to see Edwin's point.
There are a number of insurmountable problems with direct uk
The awareness problem is hypothetical at this stage and certainly surmountable.

 

[GreyWing]

You must be able to see Edwin's point.
There are a number of insurmountable problems with direct uk
The awareness problem is hypothetical at this stage and certainly surmountable.

The awareness problem is not surmountable. I think any marketing agency will tell you that the take up will not be 100%, even if it is 99% take up (which it won't be anything like). That still leaves 100,000 domains out in the cold.

Again with the issues I have mentioned above about the problems with sales calls and endless marketing people get, coupled with endless amounts of other domains on the market and people not being educated to know what on earth .uk is. All that needs to happen is for the owners of 10% of those names not to understand and take up their rights for anyone of the reasons I have mentioned and Stephen's 1 million figure to be accurate.

Does anyone here think the take up rate is going to be 90%+, Really?

 

[Stephen]

You must be able to see Edwin's point.
There are a number of insurmountable problems with direct uk
The awareness problem is hypothetical at this stage and certainly surmountable.

I can see Edwin's point and have adjusted the "millions" quote.

Have you got any "insurmountable problems with direct uk" that are omitted from the report?

Awareness of .uk can only be increased if there is a will, ability and resources that Nominet put into it, but I have not seen that they will make that commitment.

Not so much need for awareness if they operate an "opt out" policy, which would be a lot safer.

 

[websaway]

The awareness problem is not surmountable. I think any marketing agency will tell you that the take up will not be 100%, even if it is 99% take up (which it won't be anything like). That still leaves 100,000 domains out in the cold.

Again with the issues I have mentioned above about the problems with sales calls and endless marketing people get, coupled with endless amounts of other domains on the market and people not being educated to know what on earth .uk is. All that needs to happen is for the owners of 10% of those names not to understand and take up their rights for anyone of the reasons I have mentioned and Stephen's 1 million figure to be accurate.

Does anyone here think the take up rate is going to be 90%+, Really?

It may only be 40%, It's impossible to say.
If it gets to that point I think a lot of people will not take up the .uk but that isn't an awareness issue, it's an overall cost issue.
Joe public will be at the mercy of every aspect of the industry and beyond.

 

[GreyWing]

It may only be 40%, It's impossible to say.
If it gets to that point I think a lot of people will not take up the .uk but that isn't an awareness issue, it's an overall cost issue.
Joe public will be at the mercy of every aspect of the industry and beyond.

Absolutely mate, nobody knows, I don't have a clue and I'll be the first to admit it. I just thought that when people highlighted the million figure and kind of thought it was ridiculously high. I just wanted to point out that it may only be 10% not taking it up to get to that figure.

 

[Edwin]

Absolutely mate, nobody knows, I don't have a clue and I'll be the first to admit it. I just thought that when people highlighted the million figure and kind of thought it was ridiculously high. I just wanted to point out that it may only be 10% not taking it up to get to that figure.

Oh dear, that brought me back into the thread

There are two different things being discussed, as far as I can see (an easy way to end up at cross-purposes)

A) The number of businesses who will remain ignorant of .uk and therefore lose out on their .uk which they would have wanted if they'd only known about it

B) The number of .co.uk domains that won't be duplicated in .uk for ANY reason

Stephen was talking about A), and that's what I responded to.

Graeme, you seem to be talking much more about B).

A) and B) have very little to do with each other (though there is some overlap) because B) includes all the domains whose potential owners knew about the .uk launch and took the conscious decision not to "double up" on their holdings. In other words, B) >> A)

For example, I already know we won't be taking all of ours - instead, we'll end up dropping more .co.uk for the sake of ending up with "pairs" of .uk/.co.uk. I also know that other large portfolio owners are thinking along the same lines. Those represent .uk domains that were not taken up, but at no point is that down to lack of knowledge!

A) cannot possibly be millions. That was the point of my comment to Stephen.

B) could be millions, but that's not a "problem" (because it's a result of many conscious decisions to register/not register domains that people are entitled to) - just a fact.

 

[GreyWing]

I don't think they are as separate as you think mate. Just because someone has heard of the process doesn't mean they know it. Just because someone knows of it, doesn't mean they understand it.

I'd put a and b together and create c for people like us who have a very good grasp of what is going on and able to make a informed decision. C would never be millions but a and b could be.

 

[Stephen]

A v B

A) The number of businesses who will remain ignorant of .uk and therefore lose out on their .uk which they would have wanted if they'd only known about it...
Stephen was talking about A), and that's what I responded to.
...
A) cannot possibly be millions. That was the point of my comment to Stephen.

Yes I was talking about A) but I would add "also understand the significance of .uk" and "how to act to obtain the .uk" and "the dangers of not owning it" .

I still believe it could be owners of millions of .co.uk that will not obtain it for a variety of reasons of lack of receiving email, lack of getting it to the right person in the organization, forgetting to act upon it, not understanding the need to act, treating it as spam, thinking they would automatically receive it and a whole host of other similar reasons.

But agree; deciding you do not want the .uk, falls into a different category altogether.

B) The number of .co.uk domains that won't be duplicated in .uk for ANY reason

Graeme, you seem to be talking much more about B).

A) and B) have very little to do with each other (though there is some overlap) because B) includes all the domains whose potential owners knew about the .uk launch and took the conscious decision not to "double up" on their holdings. In other words, B) >> A)

For example, I already know we won't be taking all of ours - instead, we'll end up dropping more .co.uk for the sake of ending up with "pairs" of .uk/.co.uk. I also know that other large portfolio owners are thinking along the same lines. Those represent .uk domains that were not taken up, but at no point is that down to lack of knowledge!

B) could be millions, but that's not a "problem" (because it's a result of many conscious decisions to register/not register domains that people are entitled to) - just a fact.

An alternative option for some .co.uk domains held, may take up .uk and later let the less valuable .co.uk expire,
if it has not been sold before renewal.

Over time the millions of unmatched .co.uk and .uk will diminish as people register more .uk and let less attractive .co.uk expire.

 

[Stephen]

Updated Website

Not to be the bad guy, but the landing page looks very unprofessional

I think it would put people off taking it seriously.

Sorry

Thanks

Have now made website page more presentable and although it will still not win any awards, hopefully it will help the report to be taken more seriously.

YourUk.org.uk

I will keep updating report as I receive more comments.

 

[AssetDomains]

Thanks

Have now made website page more presentable and although it will still not win any awards, hopefully it will help the report to be taken more seriously.

YourUk.org.uk

I will keep updating report as I receive more comments.

Massive improvement on the site design. Thanks for all the work you've put into the report I've just tweeted a link to it.
I urge all acorners especially those who serve the wider business community to get the word any way you can

 

[Stephen]

Getting the word out there!

Massive improvement on the site design. Thanks for all the work you've put into the report I've just tweeted a link to it.
I urge all acorners especially those who serve the wider business community to get the word any way you can

Thanks.

Have started to send emails to my contact list.

If anybody has any ideas of online forums, business forums/assocations that this report on .uk
may be of interest to if they don't post something themselves could they pm me or post the link here
so I can get as many businesses to get involved as in the consultation as possible.

Also I came across a great article today on .uk, that is well worth a read;
http://splashweb.co.uk/directuk/index.html

 

[Retired_Member38]

Some major holes in this - not just in the presentation but in the content itself, with some critical errors.

 

[julian]

Stephen,

I know your very passionate about this, may I ask, what are you personally, specifically gaining or losing with the advent of .UK?

Put another way: what is your motivation to spend so much time on this - are you owner one of the domains listed on your homepage?

Thanks

Have now made website page more presentable and although it will still not win any awards, hopefully it will help the report to be taken more seriously.

YourUk.org.uk

 

[Retired_Member38]

Stephen,

I know your very passionate about this, may I ask, what are you personally, specifically gaining or losing with the advent of .UK?

Put another way: what is your motivation to spend so much time on this - are you owner one of the domains listed on your homepage?

The report is nothing more than self interest, masquerading as concern for others. Look at Stephens business model - its completely destroyed if .uk was launched like v1, with £20 reg fees and having to compete for each individually. Its going to take a massive (but probably not fatal) blow with v2 and having to pay for .uk variants of his domains.

Examples -

Handsandfeet.co.uk - £850
RackingandShelving.co.uk - £850
Shop4rent.co.uk - £850

I'll limit it to 3 but you could go through the portfolios and find hundreds of them. Overpriced low quality domains, where the corresponding .org.uk's aren't even registered at all.

I don't think you can have it both ways - either a domain is worth £850 in .co.uk and you should also own the .org.uk for reg fee, or you know you're over charging and the .co.uk is never worth close to £850 in the first place.

So people are operating this business model of stocking very low quality domains and holding them for however many years it takes for someone to come along, fail to understand the value of them, and buy.

If v2 goes ahead as planned Stephen now needs to put his money where his mouth is. You can't realistically refuse to pay £10 or whatever to pick up handsandfeet.uk, and continue the charade of the .co.uk being worth £850. So anyone holding a portfolio like this now has to pick and choose, and let a lot of them drop. I think realistically they are going to lose more than they gain if they double their costs and buy all these low value domains in .uk too, and double pay until a buyer comes along. As the buyer is going to expect them both, but not to pay double the £850.

I'm not going to use anyone else an example but there are other portfolio owners admitting they're going to dump a section of their holdings - its the only way they can realistically go.

So the financial blow to portfolio owners who went with the business model of bulk and not very good, is going to be massive.

The only way they can survive this is to get .uk cancelled completely (no chance of happening) or to have the domains handed out in pairs at zero cost (pie in the sky hope really, but slightly better than complete cancellation). Anything else which involves a new release and having to pay for the domains, is an absolute disaster business wise.

Anyway the above is obviously just my opinion of what is going on. Since Stephen is publishing his report with no disclosure of self interest (and using at least one of my domains as an example), I don't feel that its unreasonable to post publicly what I think is going on, or why.

 

[GreyWing]

Sorry mate, that's garbage. Only last month Stephen offered to buy a name off me for xxxx knowing full well that it wouldn't get .uk

Any suggestion that he fears .uk for his own and only his own .co.uk portfolio perspective is just nonsense. I don't care who you are, there isn't a man, woman or half brained amoeba on acorn that wouldn't make more cash through cybersquatting some poor mug who doesn't pick up their .uk if they wanted if v2 happened. We'd all be cashing in if v2 happened.

The money we all stand to gain on v2 would more than offset any losses. It's just wishful thinking mate to suggest people are against it for financial reasons. I think people have to just accept the fact that in the long run everyone loses through .uk as it weakens both .co.uk and .uk.

.uk will be seen as a cybersquatting extension just like .co is and will rank nowhere for a while. At the same time .co.uk will be weakened. So that's my self interest in the matter.

 

[Retired_Member38]

Buying a single non qualifying domain has very little (or nothing) to do with a situation where you're holding 1000's of domains for sale though.

Attempting to squat on other peoples missed .uk's is going to be speculative at best - if .uk becomes another .org.uk and relegated to a poor relation to .co.uk... nobody is going to care about buying up the ones you tried to extort them with. They'll just leave you sitting with them and you'll have lost the reg fees. Its far from guaranteed money anyway. The only thing thats certain at this point is weak portfolio owners are going to lose a shitload of cash if v1 or v2 goes ahead.

 

[Stephen]

critical errors?

Some major holes in this - not just in the presentation but in the content itself, with some critical errors.

In your future posts, you attack my motives/self interest but I have not seen what you consider "critical errors" and "major holes",could you elaborate on these please.

 

[Stephen]

Answers about self interest

The report is nothing more than self interest, masquerading as concern for others. Look at Stephens business model - its completely destroyed if .uk was launched like v1, with £20 reg fees and having to compete for each individually. Its going to take a massive (but probably not fatal) blow with v2 and having to pay for .uk variants of his domains.

Examples -

Handsandfeet.co.uk - £850
RackingandShelving.co.uk - £850
Shop4rent.co.uk - £850

I'll limit it to 3 but you could go through the portfolios and find hundreds of them. Overpriced low quality domains, where the corresponding .org.uk's aren't even registered at all.

I don't think you can have it both ways - either a domain is worth £850 in .co.uk and you should also own the .org.uk for reg fee, or you know you're over charging and the .co.uk is never worth close to £850 in the first place.

So people are operating this business model of stocking very low quality domains and holding them for however many years it takes for someone to come along, fail to understand the value of them, and buy.

If v2 goes ahead as planned Stephen now needs to put his money where his mouth is. You can't realistically refuse to pay £10 or whatever to pick up handsandfeet.uk, and continue the charade of the .co.uk being worth £850. So anyone holding a portfolio like this now has to pick and choose, and let a lot of them drop. I think realistically they are going to lose more than they gain if they double their costs and buy all these low value domains in .uk too, and double pay until a buyer comes along. As the buyer is going to expect them both, but not to pay double the £850.

I'm not going to use anyone else an example but there are other portfolio owners admitting they're going to dump a section of their holdings - its the only way they can realistically go.

So the financial blow to portfolio owners who went with the business model of bulk and not very good, is going to be massive.

The only way they can survive this is to get .uk cancelled completely (no chance of happening) or to have the domains handed out in pairs at zero cost (pie in the sky hope really, but slightly better than complete cancellation). Anything else which involves a new release and having to pay for the domains, is an absolute disaster business wise.

Anyway the above is obviously just my opinion of what is going on. Since Stephen is publishing his report with no disclosure of self interest (and using at least one of my domains as an example), I don't feel that its unreasonable to post publicly what I think is going on, or why.

Thanks a lot of points to deal with

Yes I have stated on Acorn a lot of my domains could be considered to be low quality. I decided not to go for generics but 2/3 words domains that would be good to set up business with and develop in many niche areas and I had staff working on it but then came the crash and I cut back on this area and the plan had to change to holding them selling enough to pay the renewals and making enough to invest £2,000 - £3,000 pm in new domains.

I'm waiting out the recession before I commit to more staff on the domain project and then it will have to adapt to the different landscape and trends.

With or without the .uk I have to prune back the portfolio of UK domains from time to time and have made no secret that I will be letting quite a few UK domains expire and also I'm going to start to build cash for any .uk bill so have cut back my new domain spend.

I did consider adding something in the report about my position but decided not to, as I wanted it to be about the .uk and the arguments won or lost on the points raised. I did included my full name and Really Useful Domains Ltd is on the bottom of the website and the registrant of YourUk.org.uk so anybody wanting to dig can find out.

Regarding the domains you mention, in my experience most end users start with 50% off that is why the prices are listed as they are. If you followed the DNS or looked at the sites you would have seen they are all parked with Sedo.co.uk and are listed as "but it now prices" as follows;

Handsandfeet.co.uk £300
RackingandShelving.co.uk £350
Shop4rent.co.uk £500​

Also I don't regard those you have chosen as low quality, I feel the price I'm asking for is correct and value and would feel confident in making a stand alone profitable business out of each of them, if I decided to develop them.

Regarding the price of the .uk domains Nominet have put in carrots to portfolio owners of a discount etc. as most of the cost of the new .uk is to do with "address verification" which is x1 cost and it would be unfair to charge per domain and they have recognized that in the proposal. However I do coincide I would reduce my UK portfolio but I would be confident in making more money from the reduced pool than I do now.

Regarding using one of your domains as an example came from another source of research of the top volume UK websites in Alexa and not from the thread. If you feel strongly about it I will consider removing it. Although I think I referred to the losing .co.uk not your domain.

I note that your position on .uk has changed from not bothering to match any .co.uk held with .uk to your latest post on a want advert for a casino domain were you state it must have rights to the .uk under the current proposal.

I hope I have answered you question and can you now please provide what it actually wrong with the report?