Nominet employees

[charlie]

exactly - nice of someone to point out this loop hole in the nominet infrastructure. Anyone with big investments its probably worth while getting a job for the chance of extra information and if this is acceptable then i cant think of any reason why ALL nominet employees aren't TAG holders already

 

[fred]

Fred and Jac,

I actually asked "What are the rules on Nominet employees becoming TAG holders or Nominet members".

and you were given the answer:

http://www.nic.uk/tag/becometagholder/obtaintag/

Anyone can become a tag holder just as anyone can become a Nominet member. Nominet does not dictate who can and cannot become one or other.

it was this part of your post that promted the rest of the discussion:

What if he started dropping catching using the DAC or registering typos ?

However what if someone like Jay Daley (I.T. Director) decided to do dropcatching to make some extra cash? What would people say then . . .

Again, IF THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED then yes, people would have a right to ask questions, but unless you have any reason to beleive it has, then you are just causing conflict for the sake of it!

 

[paul]

If I worked for Nominet and was privy to certain internal info that would give me an advantage and I was going to take advantage of that, there is no way I would get my own tag, I would set it up in a friend or relatives name (different surname).

So the fact that employees can have their own tag/membership is unimportant in my opinion.

 

[Jac]

Fred and Jac,

I actually asked "What are the rules on Nominet employees becoming TAG holders or Nominet members".

I never said they shouldn't be allowed to register domain names.

Ok Mike Penman is only a legal mediator with a TAG.

However what if someone like Jay Daley (I.T. Director) decided to do dropcatching to make some extra cash? What would people say then . . .

If it wasn't for Nominet members like me asking questions then the PAB would have no policy to write

As a Nominet Member you should take these operational issues up with the Executive. You could start by emailing [email protected].

Then again maybe if the PAB went on the Payroll maybe the same rules would have to apply to them.

The PAB would not be going 'on the Payroll'. That would indeed be wrong and affect the autonomy of the advisory board within the legal framework. All I am personally seeking is an improvement in the expenses we are awarded because of the time and effort all PAB members put in. This would entail each PAB member or their employer who wished to claim these expenses invoicing Nominet.

And for the sake of clarity, it isn't just one meeting for a couple of hours in London bi-monthly (though getting there and getting back takes up most of the day for some) there are sub-committees and other meetings to attend. There are also Nominet events which PAB members must commit themselves to and hours and sometimes days of research and reports and proposals to be written. Some of the PAB may even end up going to international conferences; who knows what may happen in the future.

You'll probably find out how much time is actually involved if you stand for the PAB yourself and get elected.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Jac]

I agree with you AQLS, particularly knowledge of pending changes (or bugs in their systems) would give them an advantage.

As I replied to Whois-Search. If a Nominet member has a concern about an operational issue they should take it up with the Executive. Can we all please remember that suspicions and allegations are not fact and the fact is, Nominet would not allow an employee to abuse the tag holding system; and if the employee was caught abusing it, I doubt they'd be an employee for very much longer. The Tag Holder Agreement and all other relevant rules and regulations apply to all Tag Holders.

I would also refer you to a reply by fred who wrote:

Again, IF THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED then yes, people would have a right to ask questions, but unless you have any reason to beleive it has, then you are just causing conflict for the sake of it!

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Whois-Search]

Fact: Mr Michael Andrew Marsh Penman now has a TAG called GOODNESS-SNAKES and he works for Nominet as a mediator.

I never said "he was" abusing the system.

All we have said which you call a "conspiracy" is that it is open to abuse.

 

[fred]

All we have said which you call a "conspiracy" is that it is open to abuse.

Which brings us back in a circle to:

So your suggesting that no-one who works for Nominet, shouldn't be allowed to own a domain name?

As that would be the only way to be sure that it was not "open to abuse".
Even then there would be ways round it like:

If I worked for Nominet and was privy to certain internal info that would give me an advantage and I was going to take advantage of that, there is no way I would get my own tag, I would set it up in a friend or relatives name (different surname).

So the fact that employees can have their own tag/membership is unimportant in my opinion.

 

[Jac]

Fact: Mr Michael Andrew Marsh Penman now has a TAG called GOODNESS-SNAKES and he works for Nominet as a mediator.

I never said "he was" abusing the system.

Then there was no reason to raise the issue on Acorn Domains, was there?

All we have said which you call a "conspiracy" is that it is open to abuse.

So are we all, all honourable men. ***

Regards
James Conaghan

*** Apologies to Shakespeare for the abuse.

 

[charlie]

i agree in part with what you say Jac but if i can compare it to buying a house ....from an estate agent who has shares in a building development company - you have to question the company employment policies and there comittment to the customer even if there is no evidence the works are related.

This for some people is an investment of significant value its good to have the confidence that the playing field is level especially when the governing body has complete overall control - we have no option but to use nominet. Therefore in the position of power, operations and system should be beyond disrepute.

.....so should we not protest about nuclear war until the bomb goes off? ;D

 

[Jac]

i agree in part with what you say Jac but if i can compare it to buying a house ....from an estate agent who has shares in a building development company - you have to question the company employment policies and there comittment to the customer even if there is no evidence the works are related.

This for some people is an investment of significant value its good to have the confidence that the playing field is level especially when the governing body has complete overall control - we have no option but to use nominet. Therefore in the position of power, operations and system should be beyond disrepute.

.....so should we not protest about nuclear war until the bomb goes off? ;D

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone questioning anything. What I personally have a problem with is insinuation; and some of the questions on this forum are insinuations not questions at all. Why make everything sound like a slur or disparaging remark instead of a question?

Nominet is a limited company, a legal entity; it is not a public service; the Home Office is a public service; yet some people apply a more stringent set of expectations to Nominet than they do to the Home Office.

People are at liberty to protest and question all they like; that's part and parcel of the democracy we enjoy in the UK.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[charlie]

Nominet is a limited company, a legal entity; it is not a public service; the Home Office is a public service; yet some people apply a more stringent set of expectations to Nominet than they do to the Home Office.

i'm not 'having a go' now i'm just interested = if nominet is a company and not a public service then can i start my own one too? Who does nominet obtain a licence from to run the domain database? I understand the complications of running two or more administration system so there must be a higher power again who restricts the administration role to one company? Is it ICANN that licence the UK out to nominet and is at any point this licence up for consideration for other companies?

thanks

 

[Jac]

i'm not 'having a go' now i'm just interested =

I wasn't having a go either, and I'm sorry if you thought that.

if nominet is a company and not a public service then can i start my own one too?

Theoretically yes. You would probably need a heck of a lot of Venture Capital though.

Who does nominet obtain a licence from to run the domain database?

I do not work for Nominet, so I can only answer that as Nominet answer on their website; www.nic.uk/about/strategy/authority/

I understand the complications of running two or more administration system so there must be a higher power again who restricts the administration role to one company?

Talk to the Government.

Is it ICANN that licence the UK out to nominet and is at any point this licence up for consideration for other companies?

ICANN recently seems to have accepted it can't rule the world and that each Country has the right to control and manage its own ccTLD. With reference to the relationship between Nominet and ICANN; here is the current position; www.nic.uk/news/latest/?contentId=3101

To some degree, things have overtaken ICANN. I doubt the rest of the world would stand aside and let American rule the global arena. You now have the UN's WSIS and IGF and who knows where these self-created internet bodies will stop. Maybe Buzz Lightyear was right? To infinity and beyond! Or maybe just Greece in October?

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[rob]

Technically anyone can start a registrar, I will sell you Sex.co.uk for £100 but it will only go to your site on my lan

There have been a few companies who have started up and flogged their own extensions but usually require plugins / forking out to ISP's to get the them to resolve.

 

[Beasty]

i'm not 'having a go' now i'm just interested = if nominet is a company and not a public service then can i start my own one too? Who does nominet obtain a licence from to run the domain database? I understand the complications of running two or more administration system so there must be a higher power again who restricts the administration role to one company? Is it ICANN that licence the UK out to nominet and is at any point this licence up for consideration for other companies?

thanks

The short answer is Nominet appointed themselves - rising out of JANET in 1996. As I understand it, Dr Willie Black moved from one to the other and became Nominet's Executive Chair.

As far as I have been able to establish, there is no specific authority from a higher body - no licence, no statutory instrument (much less an act of parliament).

Much time and energy is I suspect spent behind the scenes making sure government sees Nominet as a safe pair of hands and so feels no need to rock the boat. The presence of various government appointees on the PAB may be taken as at least an implicit endorsment.

JAC and I have disagreed a few times about whether this is right or not, given the scale of the current (and future) .uk domain space - and I'm not keen to restart the debate. However, unless someone can point me to a specific document from a third party, I think the we can safely say that Nominet/JANET simply said it had authority to run .uk when it was created and has carried on accordingly.

As I think Rob suggests, one of the practical things preventing competition is Nominet having exclusive rights to the .uk domain database.

 

[charlie]

I know we sometimes take a certain 'tone' with JAC on this forum but i'd just like to say what a valuable member he is and I fully appreciate his full and frank answers and opinions = many thanks James.

been able to hear both sides of any arguements can only be beneficial to all

am i drunk

 

[Jac]

I know we sometimes take a certain 'tone' with JAC on this forum but i'd just like to say what a valuable member he is and I fully appreciate his full and frank answers and opinions = many thanks James.

been able to hear both sides of any arguements can only be beneficial to all

am i drunk

I'm sending over another bottle! :-D

Regards
James Conaghan

PS: I'm glad to see you appreciate honesty charlie, it may come as a surprise to you but some subscribers on this forum don't like it at all.

 

[Jac]

The short answer is Nominet appointed themselves - rising out of JANET in 1996. As I understand it, Dr Willie Black moved from one to the other and became Nominet's Executive Chair.

This is 10 year old news, so I can't actually find anyone who can give me definitive answers; but I have to suggest it is unfair to say that Nominet 'appointed themselves'. Let's not forget that prior to Nominet there was a 'naming committee' comprising of Willie Black and representatives from some of the founding ISPs in the UK. Together with Willie Black; who claimed ownership of the registration .uk; they sometimes ruminated and cogitated for months before a registrant was actually awarded the .uk domain name they requested. This was totally inefficient.

So yes, Willie Black (and a nucleus of others) started Nominet UK, but as far as I am aware, they did it via what was probably the first Nominet "consultation". They put the idea out to all "naming committee" participants. Bear in mind, these were the only people showing any initiative vis-a-vis the domain name space or the internet in the early 1990s, and they were doing it openly; so where was the Government then?

So a consensus was reached that Nominet should be incoporated as a 'not for profit' company with members and despite all the criticisms since then, the altruism was, that it would act in the interests of the wider stakeholder communities.

As far as I have been able to establish, there is no specific authority from a higher body - no licence, no statutory instrument (much less an act of parliament).

Whilst that is arguably true, the Government does not seem to object to Nominet representing the UK community at international level like the IGF and/or ICANN, and as the Government is in constant dialogue with the Registry, I think there is a reasonable expectation that they think Nominet is doing a good job of holding .uk in trust for the nation and/or the wider stakeholder communities.

JAC and I have disagreed a few times about whether this is right or not, given the scale of the current (and future) .uk domain space - and I'm not keen to restart the debate. However, unless someone can point me to a specific document from a third party, I think the we can safely say that Nominet/JANET simply said it had authority to run .uk when it was created and has carried on accordingly.

If as a proposition we accept that what you say is true, why would it matter now; 10 years after the event? What I personally believe is that cooperation begats more benefit than confrontation. By all means form a Nominet Lobby Group (or whatever) and lobby Nominet on the issues you are in conflict with, but this constant penchant to deride and ridicule Nominet for every blessed thing is counterproductive and in my humble opinion without merit. The fact is, Nominet was created, it exists, and it is at worst tolerated by the UK Government and at best acknowledged as the .uk registry.

I can see merit in the argument that there should be a competitive registry, with equal access to the database, but you can't get to 'Z' when you are simply trying to bypass the other 25 letters in the alphabet first.

Even Nominet deserves that we act in a responsible and appropriate manner; not because we think we are right, but because we are acting in the interests of the wider communities. Otherwise, all we are doing is trying to dictate our own minority standpoint to a vastly increasing majority who have different sets of values and principles in terms of the UK namespace than just one minority special interest group.

You can't be right from a wrong standpoint and we could all start by being righteous in our own thinking. The .uk namespace belongs to all stakeholders, not just you, me, Whois-Search, sneezycheese, grandin, or the 1,838 members on this forum. Let's get real Beasty and let's accept that there are millions out there who have the same rights as every other .uk stakeholder. Is it so unfair to ask that of you?

As I think Rob suggests, one of the practical things preventing competition is Nominet having exclusive rights to the .uk domain database.

Which is why I would personally support you and anyone else forming a Nominet Lobby Group to lobby whoever you feel is appropriate in establishing whether or not this kind of competition would be productive or counterproductive to the .uk domain. But please do it for the right reasons; in the interests of all stakeholders; not just because one or other of you has a personal grudge or grievance against Nominet.

As I keep saying; you cannot be right from a wrong standpoint.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Whois-Search]

He founded Nominet in 1996 as a private, not-for-profit company, limited by guarantee with just three staff.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/10/black_leaves_nominet/

1996 Nominet website: http://web.archive.org/web/19961112104936/http://www.nic.uk/

1996 JANET website: http://web.archive.org/web/19961221183130/http://www.ja.net/

 

[Jac]

Thanks to Whois-Search for the links.

Interestingly enough, when Nominet first came into being Membership fees were set a tad higher than they are today, and were based on volume of domain names registered.

Nominet UK is a company limited by guarantee, which means it has no shareholders and pays no dividend. Any individual or organisation is eligible to become a member of the company, and can do so by taking out a subscription. At present, the cost of subscription varies according to the number of Internet registrations the member has made in a qualifying period (currently 1 April 1995 and 31 March 1996). Voting rights are weighted similarly, as the table below indicates:

Registrations Votes Subscriptions

<50 1 £500

50-99 2 £1000

100-199 4 £2000

200-299 6 £3000

300-399 8 £4000

>400 10 £5000

The membership of Nominet UK constitutes its Steering Committee. This in turn elects non-executive directors to a Council of Management (Board of Directors), which runs the company. There are two executive directors, Dr William Black, who is managing director, and John Carey, Technical Director. A small executive staff will also be employed in due course.

Regards
James Conaghan

 

[Beasty]

A bit confused!

I am a bit confused. All I said - in response to Charlie's question - was that Nominet's authority stemmed from being set up out of JANET. I added that there was no direct authority from government, but that I don't think there was anything to suggest that government had any problem with the status quo. And I said that I did not see any point in going over old ground with JAC about any wider issues that might arise from that.

Now apparently that amounts to my being "rightous" and that I was deriding and ridculing Nominet. I'm sorry James, but that was not my intention. I was just trying to give a straightforward answer to a question. You seem to agree that JANET formed/gave birth to Nominet; and that they are accepted - but not explicitly authorised - by government.

So why all the hyperbole? I was neither seeking to deride nor gratuitously confront anyone or anything. I was only trying to answer a question with what I thought (and you seem to agree) was a fair summary of the facts.

I would take issue with you when you say that .uk is owned by all stakeholders. I agree that it should be - but as we speak it is owned by Nominet - a company owned by about 3,000 members.