Looking for Advice and Opinions re: Imminent Expert Decision

[rob]

This thread should be stickied as a perfect example of why using/abusing TM domains is a very bad idea, particularly when solicitors/costs/damages become involved.

If you've been blatantly passing off (and that can potentially include competitors ads on a parked page) you have virtually no leg to stand on and they can hit you with crazy costs/damages if they feel like it and will probably get them.

A lot of domainers still seem to think the worst that might happen is a lost DRS or at best they'll sell it for £xxx as it's cheaper for the company than paying for the expert decision. Hopefully this issue and the post by badger might wake a few people up to what can and does happen!

The above isn't aimed directly at you Hennessy just me preaching my general message that still seems to go over lots of folks heads!

Grant

Just requoting Grant's message as I bang on, as does he and others about this but it gets ignored.

Such actions not just damage the people involved, but it damages the legit stuff others do .

 

[essexboy]

I'd like to know how many on here are guilty of doing the same as Henessy? I think it'd be a lot.

 

[GreyWing]

Doubt it mate, you wouldn't be able to do business if you were well know for it.

Maybe a few who first started dabbled in it (me included) however when we started to get into it properly, I certainly gave it up. Only had one or 2 anyway but even got paid £300 for a name via Sedo and gave the chap his name and money back once I saw it.

So I wouldn't condemn those that do it if they don't know the rules, however if they have been around here a while, they'll get to know it's not the best way to do business.

 

[aceweb]

I'm Guilty

years ago when I built my first SEO services site I used what I thought was a good co.uk domain name

in those days a good SEO could get page 2 google rankings in about 11 days for just about any keyword phrase

I got loads of good rankings in google for SEO related search phrases - and a "cease and desist" email with copy to web host - threatening me and the hosting company with just about everything he could think of including trading on his reputation

turns out I had registered the exact same domain name - he had the .com and I had the .co.uk

I received his email on the 1st April - and pissed him off by emailing him back and stating I'd never heard of him or his company - and asking if it was an April Fools joke

it turns out he was the #1 SEO in the USA although the disputed domain name was no longer his primary trading domain - and he literally exploded

a barage of threatening emails quickly arrived from him, his business partners, his lawyers - everybody was getting in on the act - with the aim of burying me and the hosting company with a multitude of emails threatening dire consequences

the hosting company shut me down without asking any questions - opened new hosting and put the site back online - got shut down - etc. etc.

I eventually found a hosting company who simply told him to sort it out with me and leave them out of it - that shut him up and he gave up

the domain was "generic word" "hyphen" "SEO" - and he even had the nerve to claim trademark to the generic word!

being the sort of person that I am, I won't negotiate or put my fate in anyones hands - and don't think you should have shown weakness by going to arbitration

if they wanted the domain so badly you should have offered to sell it to them for a high price - it would probably have been a bargain compared to legal fees they are paying

 

[grantw]

if they wanted the domain so badly you should have offered to sell it to them for a high price - it would probably have been a bargain compared to legal fees they are paying

This is totally bad advice, Have you actually read this thread? They clearly have him for passing off, unless they didn't want the legal hassles why would they pay any amount of money for the domain when they can easily take it off him and then sue for costs and damages?

He'd lost this the day it started, fighting it means more Solicitors costs for them (meaning him) and I guess the more you p*ss them off the more likely they would be to go for damages too.

Grant

 

[retired_member12]

if they wanted the domain so badly you should have offered to sell it to them for a high price - it would probably have been a bargain compared to legal fees they are paying

You clearly haven't read the whole thread have you? Firstly, he's been passing off by the looks of things, your circumstances were totally different.
And secondly, it is irresponsible to advise someone to effectively put their head on the chopping block and hold out for a 'high price'. That would be a fight which, if he loses, could cost him a packet, and you nothing.

This forum isn't made up of baiters my friend, most here advocate some common sense based of their experience and being responsible. This is someones livelyhood you're dicking about with. He's made a mistake, don't make it worse!

 

[doodlebug]

Simple advice, don't listen to Aceweb and do surrender the .co.uk in question
Non generic and a madeup trademark being used before you registered the .co.uk

Just give it up and get over it, i had .co.uks of .coms and typos and celeb names and after doing a lot of research and taking on board a lot of solid advice, i have turned my back on these completely.

No trademarks, no variuos extensions of already existing domain names, no non generic typos and you'll be ok

 

[domainking]

First Lesson never disclose the name in public forums as can be used against you.
Second always record telephone calls just to cover your back.
if you get a letter from the lawyers charge them £700 for reading any future letter.

Also check classes of tm with name.
If your unlucky to go down DRS and loose " Sue the expert" in a small claims action.

and if that fails suggest look at the weakness of the legal firm who are sending the letters and grab there domain names. fight fire with fire

 

[pendragon]

That advice from pendragon was very bad. I wish i'd read this thread earlier, asking for £200 is idiot territory.

I had a similar issue 12 months ago and took specialist legal domaining councel. This was there advice to me and it was the correct route as the other party (a US multinational) ceased all actions.

I guess I got lucky.

 

[essexboy]

As stated previously most of the advice in this thread appears to be from people who have been in the situation and are speaking from experience.

Those newer domainers though follow the belief that, I'll stick a site on the .co.uk selling the same product as the .com, If I get contacted by the owner I'll offer it to them for say £300 which is £450 cheaper than them taking me to drs. If not I'll give it up then.

They don't realise they can still be sued even after giving it up.

 

[Hennessy]

UPDATE:

I agreed to pay legal costs and the .co.uk domain has been transferred and the .eu is in the process of doing the same. I honestly didn't realize just how stupid I was in reg the domains. at the time I also didn't know or bother to check, that the name was TM'd. Still, we live and learn.

Thanks again for you comments, and if I may ask some advice on a similar matter. I'm considering reg a domain which begins www.best............ iam quite surprised that its availably and therefore suspicious that it might be non starter in as much that one could be accused of suggesting that the products that I'll be selling are in fact The Best, which may imply that others aren't. Am I being overly cautious now by not rushing to buy it, or just a little more wiser?

 

[philipp]

I agreed to pay legal costs

And of course you must be able to request copies of invoices charged to the second party, to ensure that everything is fair and above board.

P.

 

[aceweb]

maybe not!

You clearly haven't read the whole thread have you? Firstly, he's been passing off by the looks of things, your circumstances were totally different.
And secondly, it is irresponsible to advise someone to effectively put their head on the chopping block and hold out for a 'high price'. That would be a fight which, if he loses, could cost him a packet, and you nothing.

This forum isn't made up of baiters my friend, most here advocate some common sense based of their experience and being responsible. This is someones livelyhood you're dicking about with. He's made a mistake, don't make it worse!

I did read most of the thread

I once worked for a multi-national company who's owner made millions by stealing a copyrighted design - you'd recognise the brand name immediately

he kept the rightful inventor/owner tied up in court cases until he ran out of money and gave up

whatever business you're in you're going to have people coming after you

I thought my experience was relevant - but obviously not

 

[aceweb]

Flame Him!

First Lesson never disclose the name in public forums as can be used against you.
Second always record telephone calls just to cover your back.
if you get a letter from the lawyers charge them £700 for reading any future letter.

Also check classes of tm with name.
If your unlucky to go down DRS and loose " Sue the expert" in a small claims action.

and if that fails suggest look at the weakness of the legal firm who are sending the letters and grab there domain names. fight fire with fire

come on DoubleTap - flame him - you did me!

 

[sneezycheese]

How to jump the gun and make a silly mistake!

UPDATE:

I agreed to pay legal costs

...That imho was a very, very silly thing to do!

I'm also supprised that Nominet advised you to pay the complainants costs, although it would seem on the face of it that it does serve their own purposes for you to do so (which in itself brings further question about having 'in house' mediation)!

If you can you should just hand over the domains and leave it that.

Regards,

Sneezy.

 

[philipp]

...That imho was a very, very silly thing to do!

How can that be silly? From the way the original poster describes the situation he appears really vulnerable to damages claims.

It doesn't sound like he has a leg to stand on - so is it not a case of paying legal fees now, vs. paying legal fees + damages later? Admittedly damages may be judged to be zero, but why take the risk?

P.

 

[retired_member12]

I did read most of the thread

I once worked for a multi-national company who's owner made millions by stealing a copyrighted design - you'd recognise the brand name immediately

he kept the rightful inventor/owner tied up in court cases until he ran out of money and gave up

Again, another stupid and irrelevant post. Are you advocating the same in this case? I doubt your story to be honest, but even if it is true, it is founded on a dangerous gamble that no lawyer in his right mind would ever advise a client to consider, no good lawyer with his client's best interests in mind, thats for sure.

come on DoubleTap - flame him - you did me!

One, you weren't flamed.
Two, and read this right, i don't give a fuck shit who the poster is, if i don't think the advice is right, then i'll say it. So, to satisfy you request, here is my point by point reply to that post.

First Lesson never disclose the name in public forums as can be used against you.

Couldn't agree more.

Second always record telephone calls just to cover your back.

Also couldn't agree more, I always do this, and always will.

If you get a letter from the lawyers charge them £700 for reading any future letter.

A pointless comment if it's obvious the fight isn't actually worth fighting.

Also check classes of tm with name.

Agreed, very good advice.

If your unlucky to go down DRS and loose " Sue the expert" in a small claims action.

No comment.

And if that fails suggest look at the weakness of the legal firm who are sending the letters and grab there domain names. fight fire with fire.

Another stupid bit of tit for tat advice. Pointless.

come on DoubleTap - flame him - you did me!

What are you on aceweb, you sound like a school kid with that comment. Do you think some people are beyond question? Stand up for yourself like a real man, don't hide behind other posters comments, because it simply doesn't work with me pal.

 

[aceweb]

its true

Again, another stupid and irrelevant post. Are you advocating the same in this case? I doubt your story to be honest, but even if it is true, it is founded on a dangerous gamble that no lawyer in his right mind would ever advise a client to consider, no good lawyer with his client's best interests in mind, thats for sure.

its true - to say they made millions was actually an understatement - they became market leaders due to this and were top dog for decades

I'm not advocating stealing anything - obviously asking for trouble

my point was that doing business is going to naturally piss somebody off - and that you can expect trouble no matter how careful you are

 

[philipp]

my point was that doing business is going to naturally piss somebody off

When it comes to infringing other people's rights, that's true. But generally in less nefarious industries, I believe businesses tend more towards the legendary win-win situation, something that I'm sure some 'domainers' often forget

P.

 

[sneezycheese]

How can that be silly?

...experience & knowledge is the key.

Regards,

Sneezy.