Membership is FREE, giving all registered users unlimited access to every Acorn Domains feature, resource, and tool! Optional membership upgrades unlock exclusive benefits like profile signatures with links, banner placements, appearances in the weekly newsletter, and much more - customized to your membership level!

Drop list consultation

I think you missed the point. The amount of people entering wouldn't increase - just the tags. If each tag gives you a 1% increased chance, for example, then people who multitag would weigh up the cost of new tags against the increased chance rate and likely selling price of domains.
Anyway this is all hypothetical - we have no idea what nominet are going to do. Just they have *never* introduced anything that has been beneficial for anyone except themselves and the top 5 tags.

Maybe we should all start applying for extra tags right now so Nominet get the point ?

Each tag has six EPP connections...The name you put first on each EPP thread has a chance of getting through Nominet’s firewall at a set drop time.

During the ROR drop a Bulgarian SEO company http://tool.domains did this tactic and got some of the most contested names:

https://forum.nominet.uk/forum/memb...-new-tags-on-ror-uk-testbed?p=12543#post12543

SCHAKALOV - Simeon Chakalov
HKOSTOVA - Hristina Kostova
MIXACTIVITY - Tatyana Karataneva
MDOBCHEVA - Maria Dobcheva
IGEORGIEVA - Ivelina Georgieva
SPANEVA - Severina Paneva
TOOLDOMAINS - Tool Domains Ltd
SUPERSTOR - SUPER STORE BG LTD
 
Last edited:
From what I've read the intention is it wouldn't be random anymore. Firstly a daily drop list would negate the need for list building which is a waste of resources due to huge numbers of DNS queries and domain name availability checks sent.

Will Nominet release additional useful information in such a droplist from UKDC and traffic profiles for each domain? I suspect not, as this seems to be missing from the consultation.


Can't be sure. Depends how many EPP Create requests are sent at the moment for contested domain names by all registrars who participate and notice a domain names availability. If drop timestamps are published my thinking is that number of EPP creates would reduce.

I suggest that you pop out of the Nominet bubble, and have a look at what "world class registries" actually do. Verisign is undoubtedly such a registry, how many ICANN registrars are there that exist solely for drop catching? The more EPP creates that are sent, the more likely you are to catch the name, SnapNames rent other registrar connections, and apparently only 0.05% (1 in 2000) of the creates they send are successful...
 
I’m well aware how Verisign works (as an ICANN registrar).

They changed the system two years ago:

http://domainincite.com/21891-icann-expects-to-lose-750-registrars-in-the-next-year

http://domainincite.com/22261-icann-terminates-450-drop-catch-registrars

They even filed a patent on Mitigating Registrar Collusion:

https://domainnamewire.com/2017/07/06/verisign-change-expired-domain-drop-catching-game/

And another patent recently on encoded backorders:

https://domainnamewire.com/2019/09/03/verisign-gets-domain-backorder-patent/

Verisign are in a different league to Nominet.
 
Last edited:
Will Nominet release additional useful information in such a droplist from UKDC and traffic profiles for each domain? I suspect not, as this seems to be missing from the consultation.

It could be suggested in any consultation responses submitted.

I suggest that you pop out of the Nominet bubble, and have a look at what "world class registries" actually do. Verisign is undoubtedly such a registry, how many ICANN registrars are there that exist solely for drop catching? The more EPP creates that are sent, the more likely you are to catch the name, SnapNames rent other registrar connections, and apparently only 0.05% (1 in 2000) of the creates they send are successful...

You are correct that with the Verisign domain name drops (e.g. .com) being able to send more EPP Creates does assist. However it isn't good enough on its own and the following article may provide you with enlightenment. Pheenix dumped nearly 450 ICANN accredited registrars incorporated for drop catching purposes because even with the additional numbers of EPP Creates that number of ICANN accredited registrars afforded them for use with drop catching, they still couldn't compete with the competition in respect of the software development.

You have also neglected to mention one very important difference, because perhaps you don't know enough about the process. Verisign don't publish the exact drop times of any domain names scheduled to drop. There is a release window (i.e. a period of time during which all the domain names due to be released are dropped that day) and this is why ICANN accredited registrars compete by sending large numbers of EPP Creates to the registry, attempting to register those domain names. If everyone knew the exact times every domain name would be deleted by Verisign one wouldn't need to send anywhere near as many EPP Creates.
 
You have also neglected to mention one very important difference, because perhaps you don't know enough about the process. Verisign don't publish the exact drop times of any domain names scheduled to drop. There is a release window (i.e. a period of time during which all the domain names due to be released are dropped that day) and this is why ICANN accredited registrars compete by sending large numbers of EPP Creates to the registry, attempting to register those domain names. If everyone knew the exact times every domain name would be deleted by Verisign one wouldn't need to send anywhere near as many EPP Creates.

You have neglected to mention one very important difference, because perhaps you don't know enough about the process. The
order domains are dropped by Verisign is not random, and there are many research papers on this subject. I yet again suggest that you look at what others do, and stop telling others that they are wrong, and only you are right.
 
You have neglected to mention one very important difference, because perhaps you don't know enough about the process. The
order domains are dropped by Verisign is not random, and there are many research papers on this subject. I yet again suggest that you look at what others do, and stop telling others that they are wrong, and only you are right.

I am aware that Verisign drop lists are sorted by drop order but they don't include exact drop times. Although times may be able to be approximated, this is still vastly different to publishing absolute drop times as with the Nominet drop proposal. The former requires checking prior dropping domain names in this list to see their status in the overall drop. Knowing absolute times does not.
 
Guys, there would be no need to argue, or even worry about drop times or EPP creates, if Nominet just did the obvious thing and published the droplist, invited £50 bids, which in turn would trigger an auction for a small number of specific domains.

Problem sorted.

They can even nominate a third party to run the auctions if they're sniffy about doing it themselves.

Or if they don't want any financial benefits they could donate all sums above the normal reg price to charity.

The whole droplist concept is insane because it's just not necessary.
 
Guys, there would be no need to argue, or even worry about drop times or EPP creates, if Nominet just did the obvious thing and published the droplist, invited £50 bids, which in turn would trigger an auction for a small number of specific domains.

Problem sorted.

They can even nominate a third party to run the auctions if they're sniffy about doing it themselves.

Or if they don't want any financial benefits they could donate all sums above the normal reg price to charity.

The whole droplist concept is insane because it's just not necessary.

Registry run auctions might be the preference of some and seem sensible in some respects but it removes registrars from the process. This is not how the registry/registrar model operates. The registry is only interested in provisioning domain names through registrars. Qualified registrars can compete for domain names and auction them themselves.
 
The Registry/registrar model could continue for the vast majority of domain names, but is there any legal reason why the model could not be modified to allow for this simple method of distributing domain names?

It's staring you in the face.
 
As BMW7series has pointed out this would is not the model. Nominet are not looking to change the model e.g registrars can catch and sell domains if they wish, they are looking to change the way their domains are dropped. Some big registrars do drop catching and many small ones. In the case of the small ones their businesses are pretty much done overnight because many of their buyers are domainers not end users.

I can't comment on the legality if Nominet decided to choose to auction domains off, even through a 3rd party. I am sure competing registrars would take legal action as to why that one particular registrar was chosen given the money that could be at stake. If Nominet auctioned the domains off themselves again some registrars could cite anti competitive actions against them (a monopoly on UK domains basically).

All speculation and I for one do not see Nominet getting involved with auctioning off names. The drop could be staggered over 12 hours in alphabetical order or the whole lot dumped over 2 hours or so like .coms were (not sure if they still are), used to start at 7pm US time.

As I say I don't see Nominet having anything to do with auctioning off names, I don't believe that's what the consultation was about.



Guys, there would be no need to argue, or even worry about drop times or EPP creates, if Nominet just did the obvious thing and published the droplist, invited £50 bids, which in turn would trigger an auction for a small number of specific domains.

Problem sorted.

They can even nominate a third party to run the auctions if they're sniffy about doing it themselves.

Or if they don't want any financial benefits they could donate all sums above the normal reg price to charity.

The whole droplist concept is insane because it's just not necessary.
 
There are people on this forum who have sold many copies of their scripts. Probably more than people who use my software. Or do you think that everyone wrote their own? As for a 'single droplist' log in at DL or visit catchtiger to see what is backordered. It's the same everywhere. So I don't quite know what this has to do with nominet's consultation about drop lists but I don't see any change in chasing habits coming - it'll just give people a time if that's the route they're going. And if (when) that happens competition will increase drastically for everyone. As usual we'll adapt or drop out the market as has happened for the last 15-20 years. As someone who used my system before going it alone please tell me where I controlled your quota, or where I controlled how/when you chase, or where I controlled *what* you chase? That is what 'collusion' is - there is no such thing as 'soft-colluding'. You either cheat or you don't.
 
Last edited:
I'm not missing the point. You used the term 'soft collusion'. There is no such thing. Also people don't get to draw boundaries - they either chase what is dropping that they want or they don't. There are hundreds of tags in the industry chasing and I suspect less than 20 scripts between them. Does that mean they're all colluding? Godaddy employing multiple tags, if all controlled by a single entity, *is* collusion and against nominet T&C. Good luck trying to prove that though if that's the case - nominet don't bite the hands that feed them. They don't even seem to be interested in stopping the known lone-wolf multitaggers that are so apparent to the rest of us tagholders. From what I see though it's the same handful of tags catching every day so it appears that, so far, large registrars aren't interested in the market.
 
Last edited:
As someone who used my system before going it alone please tell me where I controlled your quota, or where I controlled how/when you chase, or where I controlled *what* you chase?

You might not control what clients chase, but you could pool resources of those chasing the same name such that they maximise the chance of one of them register the name successfully, maybe that's what @Katch! is referring to?
 
The solution to this is to suspend domains for 30 days from the renewal date and then release them on a random day and time over the next 60 days.
 
Gill, while that might render scripts running constant EPP Creates almost useless (who would run many of them for 60 days), and might therefore ease pressure in that area, it wouldn't be convenient to the internet public. No way do I want to have to scour for a dropping domain for 60 days. And I think it's the wide general public and ordinary internet users who should be put first in the administration of the UK namespace.

Surely it's more helpful to everyone to simply release a list of names dropping, and affording the opportunity for anyone to bid for any given name that becomes available? No EPP creates (so the same positive outcome as your approach on that score). But far clearer information on when you can get access to the domain.

Say I have a cat called Kitty and I want to register Kitty.org.uk which I see has not been renewed.

Under your proposed system, I must log in many times a day for 60 days in the hope that I'm the first to spot it has dropped. Hugely inconvenient.

If you take my approach, and list all the names, with a 10-day period when you can bid for the name, I can go online once, make my bid, and if needs be, engage in final bidding in the last half hour. Open access to people in the whole country, regardless of whether they are Nominet members or registrars or anything else. The ease of a simple system.

Being devil's advocate, sure, a porn empire person may step in and outbid me for Kitty.org.uk - that's just market forces.

On the other hand, what actually happens with the present status quo is that name catchers (like myself) end up grabbing whatever good names they can, then in many cases cybersquatting on them, while they sit for years on Sedo with exorbitant prices, taken out of the namespace for years, on the basis that you grab 1000 good names, and 10 sales will get you a profit - 990 other names just hanging vacant and unavailable.

I 'get' the whole drop-catching business because I use it myself, but it's so obvious that an immediate auction, at point of drop, would be fairer to everyone, more convenient, and would reduce cybersquatting because at auction prices more names would end up actually used and developed, not hanging unused on sites like Sedo.

People say that Nominet running auctions for names where multiple people want the same name would mean they are acting as registrars. No. Nominet already has a monopoly on selling every single .uk related domains at registration point. But selling a few of those names at whatever price the market dictates would not have to end the Registry/Registrar set up.

As part of the preconditions for bidding on a Nominet auction, all bidders could be required to designate a Registrar/tag they want a winning name to be managed by. And those registrars would get the benefit of future renewals.

In addition, if Nominet does not want to be seen to be making profit from an auction system, they could create a not-for-profit auction site, where all revenues in excess of £3-75p a domain name go to charity. Brilliant outcome! In that situation, Nominet would simply be selling the registration for the same basic price as all Nominet names, so in their function as Registry their income would be consistent. The Registrars would still be involved as obligatory parties in the name, once released. There would be no more or less monopoly than under the present system. It would be far easier for the public.

Now people say Nominet cannot do that, and it would be anti-competitive. That's spurious.

They can do it, if they choose to. It's no less competitive as a process, because bidders compete against each other, like they end up doing anyway if the names ever get placed on auction under the present system. The registrar competition would be involved in who people choose to nominate for their designated registrar when they bid.

* * * * * * * * *

If the Nominet auction system came in, I might lose out, because I might well be outbid for a domain I want (just like I am on auction sites under the present system. That's simply market forces).

But it would be far more convenient. No wondering when domains will drop. No drop-catching process. No EPP creates on the Nominet system. Just: these are the domains. They are dropping on yy/yy/yyyy. Any bid from zz/zz/zzzz will trigger an auction. All the rest will drop as usual, at a specific time.

Although I might lose out under the system I suggest, I believe the UK namespace should be run in the best interests of the widest possible number of the UK public (or even the worldwide public, but that's a different issue).

And to distance Nominet from charges that they are profiteering, the bulk of all bid money could go to charities.
 
Last edited:
Gill, while that might render scripts running constant EPP Creates almost useless (who would run many of them for 60 days), and might therefore ease pressure in that area, it wouldn't be convenient to the internet public. No way do I want to have to scour for a dropping domain for 60 days. And I think it's the wide general public and ordinary internet users who should be put first in the administration of the UK namespace.

The "internet public" don't get a look in at the moment. Assuming Nominet won't auction domains themselves, increasing the randomness of the drop is the only practical way to stop the cheats.

The ideal scenario for me is that Nominet nominate a number of charities, auction any valuable names that aren't renewed and donate the proceeds to those charities.
 
But why should we 'assume' Nominet won't auction domains themselves.

I agree Gill, as a pragmatist, I think you are right.

But since in ideal principle you agree that in-demand names should be auctioned, should we not be asking: if not, why not?

And I think the decision whether to auction a name should not be down to Nominet - it should simply be triggered by the first person willing to bid on any particular dropping domain name.

As you say, all this is academic unless Nominet believe they should do it, but frankly I believe they should.

Does Nominet, does the registrar system, exist for Nominet and the registrars, or for the best interests of the UK public?

Auctioning dropping domains makes them more accessible to the wider public, albeit in a market place which determines price just like everything else we buy.

The registrar system is not jettisoned in the model of auction I propose, because the bidder would have to designate a receiving registrar as part of the bidding process. It's just that everybody could participate and purchase, instead of a small number of people (in practice dominated by about 20 most regular catchers), at the point that a domain becomes available.

An Nominet auction system would not harm Nominet or the registrar model. Indeed, if Nominet chose to, channelling proceeds to charity beyond the basic £3-75 they regularly charge for a domain, would earn Nominet spin and PR.

The real question is why this obvious course of action isn't implemented.
 

The Rule #1

Do not insult any other member. Be polite and do business. Thank you!

Members online

Premium Members

New Threads

Our Mods' Businesses

*the exceptional businesses of our esteemed moderators
General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
      There are no messages in the current room.
      Top Bottom