Champions for DRS change

[sneezycheese]

The Independent Expert quotes the now famous "Tony Willoughby four stage test" (hello Tony if you are reading this - as I am sure you are) as taken from the chivasbrothers.co.uk DRS (although the "Expert" referenced DRS 00292 but it's actually 00658 ). He pointed out that stages 1 and 4 were satisfied but he had difficulty with 2. See the decision for more.

If it’s used so much why do we not see any referral to this ‘four stage test’ in our contract?

 

[Whois-Search]

Michael Toth just posted what happened here:

http://www.acorndomains.co.uk/domain-name-disputes/5729-bounce-co-uk-drs-new-post.html

 

[sneezycheese]

I asked: “If it’s used so much why do we not see any referral to this ‘four stage test’ in our contract?”

Response:

It's a precident from a decision in a previous case. The Independent Expert in that case was Tony Willoughby who has also been appointed Chairman of the Independent Experts. Other Independent Experts have taken it upon themselves to use his four stage test within their own decisions. Not all of them choose too.

Again I have to point to the Contract – DRS decisions ‘DO NOT’ form part of the contract, the exceptions being in appeals where under section (10)(c) of the policy is stated: “We will publish decisions of the appeal panel. Appeal decisions will not have precedent value, but will be of persuasive value to Experts in future decisions.”. Even then this information is not included or defined in the contract terms.

Contracts need to be clear and defined, not added as an 'ad hock' ‘optional extra’ as you post 'seems' to suggest!

 

[bb99]

We're now seeing situations whereby the experts are selectively using past decisions / reasoning / "tests". It should be all or nothing.

If it's all, then there should be some form of summary of established preccedents so that all can see them without having to read every DRS.

If it's nothing, then it should be nothing.

To have a half way house where the expert can just decide whether or not to utilise this stuff is a bit unfair in my view.

 

[domaingenius]

would surely be able to introduce a better DRS - something more in line with .com decisions.

.Com decisions can be just as bad as DRS ,believe me I know. What I still dont know is WHY Nominet just have to have any DRS at all ?. Why do they ?.
If you buy personalised number plates is there a DRS ? No. If you buy personal telephone numbers is there a DRS ?. No. Why on earth does Nominet insist on having one, really ? Why not just let complainants go to Court ?

DG

 

[tifosi]

Michael Toth just posted what happened here:

http://www.acorndomains.co.uk/domain-name-disputes/5729-bounce-co-uk-drs-new-post.html

Considering this, is there a precendence for Nominet being sued for negligence?

Not replying to a DRS is one thing, not being able to is another. Is there a Members page on the Nominet site showing DRS's underway? Should there be?

 

[Jac]

Richard Martin's comment re nom-steer

I stand as an independant, My election statement is hopefully pretty comprehensive

I should have added to it that I think nom-steer etc should be overhauled, what an old school way of communicating and mostly why I haven't used on it

Richard,

Whilst I agree with you that nom-steer is indeed an 'old school way of communicating' it is an old school way that allows you to talk to 720 (ish) members of Nominet and most have strong, and often competing views, on the different issues.

I would recommend anyone standing in a PAB election to get onto nom-steer and interact with some of the old-school members. If you are elected to the PAB you will need to understand the different viewpoints on the different issues as the PAB is supposed to represent all stakeholder groups, not just a sub-set. Indeed, don't forget there are 8 elected members sitting on the PAB who represent government, industry, commerce and consumer interests (and they too have pretty strong views).

As an aside, I notice Andrew (Whois-Search) posts to nom-steer quite often.

Regards
James Conaghan
http://www.conaghan.me.uk
[email protected]

 

[Edwin]

It's minor compared to some of the other reform suggestions, but the response time needs to be extended beyond its current 15 days. More and more .co.uk domain owners live abroad and (from experience) I can tell you that it can easily take a week or more for UK post to get to Japan, for instance. Add the same return journey delay, and you're immediately into negative numbers of days in which to prepare a response.

Double it to 30 days on the other hand, and that will probably mean that the overseas receipt/response window will go up to close to 100% success.

 

[tifosi]

In addition it appears that the attitude is 'oh well, they couldn't be bothered responding, lets get on with the drs'. Instead of exhausting EVERY method of attempting to contact the tag/member, and stating as such in the drs.

I know that it's difficult to do so and of the 4m domains a percentage will be uncontactable. But in this case the regular methods of contacting the domain owner failed miserably (not to say the expert result, which was imho wrong and failed miserably on the abusive registration clause).

As a base minimum for such an important procedure the initial mail contact should be by registered/recorded delivery, and that further DRS procedures should NOT procede until this avenue has been exhausted.

S

 

[Edwin]

Not aimed specifically at Nominet, but you would be surprised (or not?) at just how clueless UK companies are when it comes to dealing with "overseas". For instance, I have stuff take literally over a month to get to me (and felt lucky it arrived at all - technically it shouldn't have) because it had a 2nd class stamp stuck on it!

 

[Hazel Pegg]

Funnily enough, only last week I suggested to Nominet that all the nom-* mailing lists be mothballed and replaced with a members/tagholders vBulletin (or whatever) forum.

Mailing lists are so "old economy"

But so useful when connecting via a mobile whilst on the beach. Much cheaper to download a mail-list and read and reply offline than to stay online to browse a forum.

Hazel

 

[bb99]

But so useful when connecting via a mobile whilst on the beach. Much cheaper to download a mail-list and read and reply offline than to stay online to browse a forum.

True, although I'm led to believe there's appropriate wizardry to allow both forum and mailing list to run in parallel. Not sure of the practicalities though.

 

[domaingenius]

Does anyone know if any respondent/complainant has ever sought intervention of the Courts in DRS and its fairness or otherwise?. That may be the way to go in such circumstances as with "Bounce". I would be interested to know exactly what the rules are in DRS on service of the proceedings and whether those can be considered fair.

DG

 

[richard]

Richard,

Whilst I agree with you that nom-steer is indeed an 'old school way of communicating' it is an old school way that allows you to talk to 720 (ish) members of Nominet and most have strong, and often competing views, on the different issues.

I would recommend anyone standing in a PAB election to get onto nom-steer and interact with some of the old-school members. If you are elected to the PAB you will need to understand the different viewpoints on the different issues as the PAB is supposed to represent all stakeholder groups, not just a sub-set. Indeed, don't forget there are 8 elected members sitting on the PAB who represent government, industry, commerce and consumer interests (and they too have pretty strong views).

As an aside, I notice Andrew (Whois-Search) posts to nom-steer quite often.

Regards
James Conaghan
http://www.conaghan.me.uk
[email protected]

I do read it, but I still find the presentation of it very confusing

I'll give it a go though

 

[Jac]

I do read it, but I still find the presentation of it very confusing

I'll give it a go though

I find getting up in the morning confusing but it's spooky how the day makes more sense after a gallon of tea.

Look forward to hearing your views on nom-steer.

Regards
James Conaghan
http://www.conaghan.me.uk
[email protected]

 

[richard]

I find getting up in the morning confusing but it's spooky how the day makes more sense after a gallon of tea.

Look forward to hearing your views on nom-steer.

Regards
James Conaghan
http://www.conaghan.me.uk
[email protected]

Alas I tried last night and nothing showed up, I must be doing something wrong?

 

[Whois-Search]

James Conaghan posted this on Nom-Steer today in reply to Leo Vegoda:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you mean the £3,000 appeals fee? Which is something I would like to
resolve. I personally think £3,000 is a heck of an obstacle to "justice" for
those who cannot afford to appeal decisions that go against them; and it is
my humble opinion that most ordinary people do not appeal for that very
reason.

Whilst I understand the logic that it might cost a lot more in court,
Nominet and/or the DRS is *not* the court so the argument is a little
irrelevant to someone who just hasn't got the £3,000. I had hoped that DRS
was 'for the people' but it seems to be only for those with the deepest
pockets. In a community led environment, is this the best a community led
registry can do?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

At least James (a current Nominet PAB member up for re-election) sees sense.

Michael Toth had no chance to get 3k to Nominet on bounce.co.uk !

 

[Jac]

Alas I tried last night and nothing showed up, I must be doing something wrong?

Hi Richard,

I saw two posts from you on nom-steer. If you are still having trouble posting to the list email [email protected] and the very helpful peeps there will be able to advise how to sort it out.

Regards
James Conaghan
[email protected]
[email protected]