Bitcoins in 2014?

[Edwin]

I still don't see any legal point to Bitcoin if they're not going to go zooming up in value. Dell, for example, accepts credit cards and other forms of payment that are going to be cheaper than Bitcoin (there's no fee to take money you already have and use it to pay via a credit card, but you'll have to pay a commission to swap it into Bitcoin)

Sure, if you're trying to pay anonymously for dodgy stuff on Silk Road 99 or whatever the latest incarnation of the site turns out to be, that's one thing, but regular businesses already take regular payment mechanisms - usually at zero cost to the customer since they eat the merchant fees.

Two trends pull in diametrically opposite directions:
- The more Bitcoin fluctuates (especially on the upside) the more it looks good as a speculative investment to those unconcerned about the Ponzi style nature of that upward price movement (there is a constant need for "greater fools" to come in at ever-higher prices to keep pushing the Bitcoin price up) but the worse it looks as an alternative payment mechanism (companies generally like to know what the funds they've just taken for a good/service they themselves had to buy using "proper money" are going to be worth and rapid fluctuations make that impossible)
- The less Bitcoin fluctuates, the more it looks good as an alternative payment mechanism, but the less attractive it looks as an investment. At the extreme, if the price of Bitcoin were rock-steady, it would be very easy to process payments in, but nobody would bother to hold Bitcoin for investment purposes as inflation would eat up the value of any Bitcoin deposits (not to mention losses due to security weaknesses, theft, scams etc.)

 

[PanzerWagon]

I still don't see any legal point to Bitcoin if they're not going to go zooming up in value. Dell, for example, accepts credit cards and other forms of payment that are going to be cheaper than Bitcoin (there's no fee to take money you already have and use it to pay via a credit card, but you'll have to pay a commission to swap it into Bitcoin)

Sure, if you're trying to pay anonymously for dodgy stuff on Silk Road 99 or whatever the latest incarnation of the site turns out to be, that's one thing, but regular businesses already take regular payment mechanisms - usually at zero cost to the customer since they eat the merchant fees.

I think what's clear from this thread is you don't understand Bitcoin.

Unsubscribe would be my recommendation.

 

[websaway]

It strikes me that there is a big difference between purchasing through this method and investing in the coin.
So long as you are not holding the coins there is less risk.

 

[Edwin]

It's also important to bear in mind that there are two very different "groups" of people when it comes to Bitcoin:

A) Those who already have Bitcoin, whether as a result of mining when mining was still relatively "easy" or because they bought them a long time ago when the price was low (or conversely at the peak because the market looked like it was shooting up)

B) Those who don't have any Bitcoin, but who are aware of it

Those in group A) - if their Bitcoin were obtained at a low enough price (mining when mining was cheap, or bought when Bitcoin were cheap) may be highly interested in ways to turn their theoretical paper "profit" into nice tangible things, like new computers. Indeed, they may be "better potential customers" in that the Bitcoin may feel like "funny money" i.e. it's less of a wrench for them to imagine losing a few Bitcoin than to imagine parting with £thousands of "real money" - and that makes them more likely to buy (on average) than "real money" customers may be. Also, since the Bitcoin they will use to pay are ALREADY Bitcoin, there's no issue of conversion costs or any need to find an appropriate conversion mechanism.

For those in Group B, on the other hand, it's very unclear why they would opt to use Bitcoin over any other form of payment. After all, if they've got £1,000 in their bank account (for example) and are eyeing up a high-end Ultrabook, then where is the benefit in turning that £1,000 into £1,000-worth-of-Bitcoin and then paying Dell with Bitcoin rather than using a credit or debit card? Simply put, there is none.

However, there is enough latent value already stored in the total "float" of Bitcoin out there (current value: $8.143 billion according to CoinDesk) that it can be worth it from a merchant's perspective to provide mechanisms to allow the spending of Bitcoin in their stores.

But there's no logical reason for the Bitcoin payment method to "jump the chasm" from Bitcoin holders to non-Bitcoin holders (there's no benefit over "real money", after all, UNLESS you have Bitcoin already) and so that $8.143 billion is pretty much the maximum available money that could be expected to be spent in such a way.

 

[PanzerWagon]

It's also important to bear in mind that there are two very different "groups" of people when it comes to Bitcoin:

A) Those who already have Bitcoin, whether as a result of mining when mining was still relatively "easy" or because they bought them a long time ago when the price was low (or conversely at the peak because the market looked like it was shooting up)

B) Those who don't have any Bitcoin, but who are aware of it

Those in group A) - if their Bitcoin were obtained at a low enough price (mining when mining was cheap, or bought when Bitcoin were cheap) may be highly interested in ways to turn their theoretical paper "profit" into nice tangible things, like new computers. Also, since the Bitcoin they will use to pay are ALREADY Bitcoin, there's no issue of conversion costs or any need to find an appropriate conversion mechanism.

For those in Group B, on the other hand, it's very unclear why they would opt to use Bitcoin over any other form of payment. After all, if they've got £1,000 in their bank account (for example) and are eyeing up a high-end Ultrabook, then where is the benefit in turning that £1,000 into £1,000-worth-of-Bitcoin and then paying Dell with Bitcoin rather than using a credit or debit card? Simply put, there is none.

However, there is enough latent value already stored in the total "float" of Bitcoin out there (current value: $8.143 billion according to CoinDesk) that it can be worth it from a merchant's perspective to provide mechanisms to allow the spending of Bitcoin in their stores.

But there's no logical reason for the Bitcoin payment method to "jump the chasm" from Bitcoin holders to non-Bitcoin holders (there's no benefit over "real money", after all) and so that $8.143 billion is pretty much the maximum available money that could be expected to be spent in such a way.

Edwin, please stop spouting complete nonsense. It is blatantly obvious you have no grasp of how Bitcoin works or simple economics.

 

[Edwin]

Edwin, please stop spouting complete nonsense. It is blatantly obvious you have no grasp of how Bitcoin works or simple economics.

Then explain it using logic.

Not emotion. Not insults. logic.

That way, everyone can benefit.

 

[bonusmedia]

.

 

[PanzerWagon]

Then explain it using logic.

Not emotion. Not insults. logic.

That way, everyone can benefit.

I really can't be bothered.

The simple fact is Bitcoin has numerous benefits over fiat currencies. Or as you call it real money. Which it isn't. It' just printed paper with zero intrinsic value what so ever. The governments print more of more on a daily basis further increasing debt.

Bitcoin has intrinsic value. The network and protocol is the value. It completely removes the need for banks and other payment processing intermediaries.

I think people are waking up to the fact they can send money in a peer to peer way without the need for fees or the use of banks.

Bitcoin is here to stay and it's usage is only going to increase.

 

[Edwin]

I really can't be bothered.

Ok, it's a large topic. So let's narrow the focus and make it easier. Here's a very simple, specific question for you:

"Why should anyone who doesn't already have Bitcoin pay Dell in Bitcoin?"

If the answer is "There's no logical reason why they should" (which is exactly what I stated earlier) then my contention that a Bitcoin payment mechanism will only be of interest to Bitcoin holders is correct.

That's not the same as saying "implementing Bitcoin as a payment mechanism is a worthless exercise" - I've already pointed out that there's a pool of over $8,000,000,000 in Bitcoin sloshing around, theoretically just waiting to be spent.

BTW, it's worth noting that the fact that Dell accepts payment in Bitcoin should not be interpreted as meaning that Dell wants to own Bitcoin - their chosen payment process allows them to instantaneously receive the value of those Bitcoin in USD so from Dell's point of view it's a black box that spits out US$ or £, just like a credit card/debit card processor's process is - only potentially with fewer fees. In other words, this isn't a "vote for Bitcoin" by Dell, it's just a way for them to drum up some more sales.
https://coinbase.com/docs/merchant_tools/payouts#instant_exchange

So the attraction to Dell is obvious:-
- $8,000,000,000 worth of Bitcoin just waiting to be spent (and this is potentially money with less "friction" than real money, because it doesn't feel as bad to lose a few Bitcoin as it does to see your hard-earned savings debited)
- They actually get paid in $ anyway, and the fees are lower or much lower than for credit card transactions
- There's near zero risk (transactions older than an hour can't be reversed) so no danger of chargeback fraud

The attraction to Bitcoin owners is obvious, and doesn't need re-stating.

The attraction to non-Bitcoin owners is zero.

 

[websaway]

I really can't be bothered.

The simple fact is Bitcoin has numerous benefits over fiat currencies. Or as you call it real money. Which it isn't. It' just printed paper with zero intrinsic value what so ever. The governments print more of more on a daily basis further increasing debt.

Bitcoin has intrinsic value. The network and protocol is the value. It completely removes the need for banks and other payment processing intermediaries.

I think people are waking up to the fact they can send money in a peer to peer way without the need for fees or the use of banks.

Bitcoin is here to stay and it's usage is only going to increase.

I'm afraid that's not very convincing.

 

[Murray]

I'm sorry Edwin, I agree with Panzer, I think you are looking at it far too simply.

There is a much bigger picture here about exploring a fairer financial system than the one we currently have.

It completely removes the need for banks and other payment processing intermediaries.

You know as great as this is, it's also kind of a problem because people have to become their own banks and their technical knowledge and security isn't good enough

I want to buy a bitcoin, so I've been reading all the steps I need to take to safely buy one and put it in a paper wallet, it's not a simple thing, it would be an extremely off putting thing to your everyday person.

+ With it being so hard to store them safely online, it also takes away from being able to keep any serious amount online for any period to actually spend them.

Atm bitcoin seem more like an investment like gold than spendable money.

 

[Jamie101]

Edwin - It's not exactly fair to focus on Dell so much. There are loads of other sites that accept bitcoin and gives a nice discount for anyone paying in bitcoin since the fees involved are much lower.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[PanzerWagon]

"Why should anyone who doesn't already have Bitcoin pay Dell in Bitcoin?"

Whether or not it makes people buy bitcoin to buy laptops in bitcoin is irrelevant. The fact is Dell now accepts it. Which adds another huge layer of credibility.

Merchants are now seeing it as a viable method to send money. And in turn I think that brings more awareness to the Bitcoin protocol as a whole.

When I refer to lack your understanding I'm talking about this whole thread, for someone who "can't see a legal point to Bitcoin" you spend an awful lot of time posting about it. I thought you were on the Nominet payroll, now I think you work for the Central Bank.

There is a huge benefit to it and that' why companies like Western Union are worried. You can now send money across the globe for virtually nothing. You don't need corrupt bankers or excessive payment processing fees. Bitcoin is primarily a medium for money transfer. That in turn makes it a currency. That is why it will be a success and already is a success. Look at the order books and transfers taking place already. Crowdfunding with virtual currencies is on the up.

"(and this is potentially money with less "friction" than real money, because it doesn't feel as bad to lose a few Bitcoin as it does to see your hard-earned savings debited)"

This is why you don't understand it. You see £'s as real money and bitcoin as not real money which people spend willy nilly.

I see Bitcoin as more real than £'s because you can't just print more of it when you need it and it can't be manipulated. That to me is a huge strength and one that more and more people are beginning to recognise. If someone asked me now would I rather put money in a savings account or buy bitcoin I'd pick bitcoin all day long

IMO it could eventually kill off the banks all together. But we shall see. It will need the weak naysayers to come on board for that to happen though. A lot of people are just happy to keep getting screwed by the banks and political fraudsters without doing anything about it. They end up blaming themselves about why the food bill is going up every month when really it's the Bank of England printing more and more money which nobody ever sees and we only get wealth redistribution, from the poor to the top 1% rather than wealth creation. Bitcoin addresses that very problem.

I'm off this thread now, I'll revisit it in 5 years when Bitcoin's have increased in value 100 fold and you have changed your tune and are trying to flog www. agriculturalmachineryforsaleinyorkshireandlancashire.co.uk for 1 bitcoin.

 

[RobM]

Reminds me of the people with .mobis who were going to come back in 10 years and gloat at how much they were worth Pointless arguing with them.

 

[Skinner]

Paypal.

I saw this debate a decade ago, Edwins words near enough only it was paypal. Paypal charge me to take money out, I get charged a percentage to accept money, I get charged blagh. Why would I put money in paypal to pay someone ? Only people with money in paypal will use it. Sounds familiar.

Who knows where bitcoin will end up, did anyone see paypal coming ?

 

[Edwin]

Paypal.

I saw this debate a decade ago, Edwins words near enough only it was paypal. Paypal charge me to take money out, I get charged a percentage to accept money, I get charged blagh. Why would I put money in paypal to pay someone ? Only people with money in paypal will use it. Sounds familiar.

Who knows where bitcoin will end up, did anyone see paypal coming ?

Paypal is not a form of investment.

The mechanisms that underpin Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies may well prove disruptive to banking, forex and payment systems, just like Paypal has had a major impact on how people pay for things.

But there's absolutely no reason why Bitcoin has to be the winning horse in that race just because it got a solid start. It is not inherently a good "stored value" system - in fact, as Murray's post above highlights, it's very poor for that. Equally, a disruptive payment mechanism doesn't need to be a new currency in order to work its "magic".

Paypal has no "inherent" value - it's just a mechanism (albeit a very successful one) - and there's no reason why whatever ultimately disrupts the banks etc need have any inherent value either.

The big disconnect is that Bitcoin is portrayed as being several mutually exclusive things: a good investment mechanism, a viable alternative currency, and a better-than-credit-cards-banks-etc means of moving money around. One of those is (probably) true - the other two are not. But anyone with Bitcoin has an interest in talking up Bitcoin, so it's not surprising emotions run high.

 

[websaway]

Whether or not it makes people buy bitcoin to buy laptops in bitcoin is irrelevant. The fact is Dell now accepts it. Which adds another huge layer of credibility.

Merchants are now seeing it as a viable method to send money. And in turn I think that brings more awareness to the Bitcoin protocol as a whole.

When I refer to lack your understanding I'm talking about this whole thread, for someone who "can't see a legal point to Bitcoin" you spend an awful lot of time posting about it. I thought you were on the Nominet payroll, now I think you work for the Central Bank.

There is a huge benefit to it and that' why companies like Western Union are worried. You can now send money across the globe for virtually nothing. You don't need corrupt bankers or excessive payment processing fees. Bitcoin is primarily a medium for money transfer. That in turn makes it a currency. That is why it will be a success and already is a success. Look at the order books and transfers taking place already. Crowdfunding with virtual currencies is on the up.

"(and this is potentially money with less "friction" than real money, because it doesn't feel as bad to lose a few Bitcoin as it does to see your hard-earned savings debited)"

This is why you don't understand it. You see £'s as real money and bitcoin as not real money which people spend willy nilly.

I see Bitcoin as more real than £'s because you can't just print more of it when you need it and it can't be manipulated. That to me is a huge strength and one that more and more people are beginning to recognise. If someone asked me now would I rather put money in a savings account or buy bitcoin I'd pick bitcoin all day long

IMO it could eventually kill off the banks all together. But we shall see. It will need the weak naysayers to come on board for that to happen though. A lot of people are just happy to keep getting screwed by the banks and political fraudsters without doing anything about it. They end up blaming themselves about why the food bill is going up every month when really it's the Bank of England printing more and more money which nobody ever sees and we only get wealth redistribution, from the poor to the top 1% rather than wealth creation. Bitcoin addresses that very problem.

I'm off this thread now, I'll revisit it in 5 years when Bitcoin's have increased in value 100 fold and you have changed your tune and are trying to flog www. agriculturalmachineryforsaleinyorkshireandlancashire.co.uk for 1 bitcoin.

This slightly reminds me of a time when people thought all the ill's of capitalism could be cured through communism.

It's not that easy.

 

[Skinner]

Edwin, my point was more aimed that how paypal evolved to overcome most of the early obstacles. They removed the price to withdraw cash, made it free to move cash into paypal from your bank/card, moved some charges to the other person, etc.

Bitcoin can evolve the same way, such as the commission to convert, the trust issue is being chipped away.

Using another "too hard for the regular man" example, Linux, there a time that only someone who was a level 82 dungeon master and a sunlight allergy would go there, now we have pretty front ends and stolen mods (mac) which make it more palatable.

I know junking linux and paypal in together is reaching, but they were the same problems and they were or are being overcome.

 

[Edwin]

If we're going with tangential analogies, how about cars?

I'm sure at the beginning horse and cart owners had no idea how successful they would become - indeed, there was no doubt disbelief and mockery - but car manufacturers concentrated on doing one thing well: creating a mode of transport - they didn't try and simultaneously claim that cars are a good investment. You buy a car for the transport benefits it brings, not from any expectation it will go up in value.

And that's by far the least credible aspect of Bitcoin: the notion that it can be a good investment.

 

[Retired_Member38]

there is a constant need for "greater fools" to come in at ever-higher prices to keep pushing the Bitcoin price up

Ah, greater fools. A business model that most domainers in 2014 are very well acquainted with.