27 days... Model C... an auction model

[Siusaidh]

Edit. It would also mean that people with portfolios would get access to that auction site? Is that what you mean aswell?

No. I don't think there's any prospect of Nominet getting into the game of auctioning other people's domain collections. I don't see that happening at all.

 

[Derek]

How about a raffle ? Everyone pays the usual reg fee (effectively a ticket) and only people who enter get drawn randomly from. If highly contested Nominet make more but fair for everyone. Also means people wouldnt just blanket bomb as would cost every entry.

If you charge people for entry for a prize draw it'll come under gambling rules. I can't see how Nominet could ever do that.

If you don't charge people to enter and only charge the winner, then a small number of people will control 100's or even 1000's of accounts.

 

[Murray]

Raffle would benefit everyone and no one

 

[StudioVision]

If you charge people for entry for a prize draw it'll come under gambling rules. I can't see how Nominet could ever do that.

You could make it skill-based i.e. ask a simple question on entry (1+1=? for example) and only people with a correct answer have a chance of winning.

Apologies if I’ve missed it elsewhere, but would the auction model only be open to tag holders? Or anyone who expresses an interest before the auction starts and pays their entry fee (if there is one)?

 

[Derek]

You could make it skill-based i.e. ask a simple question on entry (1+1=? for example) and only people with a correct answer have a chance of winning.

You can't do that. Or you're not meant to. I looked into this business model as I was interested in how those win a car websites run. It needs to be a genuine skill entry, you can't ask what colour is an orange. A lot of these car raffle sites are not complying but Nominet wouldn't be able to do that.

I don't think the idea would work. Winning a Porsche is something aspirational, it'd be fun thinking about winning it. You can't really do that with a £150 dropping domain, who's going to pay to go in the hat to win it?

If you don't need to pay to enter then we're back facing a lot of the raffles being won by Ova ending names in a Bulgarian shanty town.

 

[Siusaidh]

Apologies if I’ve missed it elsewhere, but would the auction model only be open to tag holders? Or anyone who expresses an interest before the auction starts and pays their entry fee (if there is one)?

I'm assuming it would be open to the general public.

 

[Lovekraft]

Susanna part of your argument for an auction model was always that an auction model will give fairer access to joe public interested in acquiring a domain. When does joe public spend hours trawling through drop lists every week to establish that a domain they might be interested in is dropping? Very rarely. Even if it wasn't drop lists, they aren't going to be visiting an auction site for domains as part of their daily routine are they?

Like a few people on here I generally make do with the crumbs of the catches but more often than not when I do sell a domain the person / company I am selling it to often express their gratitude for me having sold a domain that is perfect for them at a reasonable amount, they understand that I have the knowledge of domains becoming available and invest my time and money in doing this so they hold no grudges against me making a few quid for doing so.

My point is joe public aren't going to benefit one bit from all this, the domains will just end up in the hand of investors with the deepest pockets.

I do think suggestions along the lines of making it much harder to obtain membership is the way to go here but history shows there's very little point in trying to argue a toss with Nominet about what would make a better system, their minds are made up. Maybe i sound defeatist but I'm sure many will realise what I mean.

 

[Murray]

Dropcatching has been great, attracted people with an entrepreneurial spirit

All the money that was a very welcome extra income for real people will now go to Nominet to do what with?

People talk about sitting on domains being a shame when dropcatchers do it but Nominet will be doing the same with the money, at least the money improved our lives

Taking something valuable and turning it into nothing

 

[Lovekraft]

Dropcatching has been great, attracted people with an entrepreneurial spirit

All the money that was a very welcome extra income for real people will now go to Nominet to do what with?

People talk about sitting on domains being a shame when dropcatchers do it but Nominet will be doing the same with the money, at least the money improved our lives

Taking something valuable and turning it into nothing

And not only that, the types of investors that will be able to afford to win most of the auctions are definitely going to be the hoarder / hold out for a fortune types (no disrespect to them) so joe public are going to be even less likely to be able to acquire a domain for a reasonable amount.

I've said it already but it was "us lot" that created the market that exists over the last 20 odd years. Will Nominet be branded the likes of "domain pirates" etc for flogging domains for a profit like we've been vilified as for many years.

 

[Derek]

The idea of Nominet changing the way drop catching works to make the UK namespace more 'vibrant' is a fallacy, I think it could even drive the opposite if auctions are the way they go - as others have said, more names held by large investors holding out for the bigger sales - rather than the landscape as it is now, with a mix including small businesses/independent registrars who buy and sell names at lower margins.

I think if domains are auctioned you would see more of them used rather than hoarded. Some people now are sitting on domains for years asking for unrealistic prices. Thats easy to do when you paid reg fee to catch them. I don't think people will be so keen to do that if they cost hundreds or thousands in the first place. It will force buyers to have a reasonable use plan beforehand.

 

[Murray]

I think if domains are auctioned you would see more of them used rather than hoarded

In theory maybe, in practice what happens to most domains sold on DL?

 

[Siusaidh]

I think you make fair points, Lovecraft, and to be clear, I put together a case for auctions, yes, in January at the height of some appalling cheating, because I was despondent that the cheating could ever be stopped or rules enforced... but as you make clear, there are obvious arguments not to proceed with it too.

I’m trying not to be an advocate or an opponent. I think I need to show respect and sincerely try to listen. To be honest, there are arguments I think are quite complicated and need to be detailed, studied, and reflected on. When there was no prospect of me being anyone except myself, I think I had a freedom to fire off my own ideas willy-nilly. But moving towards a representative role, my position becomes more compromised by a duty not to be partisan, and I take that responsibility seriously, to listen more and really try to see what everyone has to say, not just what I have to say.

At least here at Acorn, I think I am in a prime position to do that. I’ve had a chance to weigh people up, to do business with people, to follow debates. And also, doing business with many people here, and experiencing much goodwill and decency (even gifts of domain names), I am able to *feel* what this crisis means for people, at a time as Murray has already pointed out, of national crisis. It's made me think deeper.

The name-dropping crisis is not going away. We've got to be realistic about that, and I know you are. Nominet are bringing it to a head. It's been accentuated by the big registrars circumventing convention and mass-registering millions of domains. That achieved almost nothing. But the feeding frenzy that followed, when Namesco's huge number of domains dropped in January, led to what has been correctly identified as a tactical 'arms race', and frankly a meltdown of the system, and failure to enforce rules. It's a classic kind of domain world situation. Laissez-faire and leave large registrars to police their own actions. In my view they needed policing.

The question is, what are people going to advocate to Nominet, and will that change their decision-making? Obviously I get that many will be cynical about that. My job, as I see it, is to try to be more genuinely non-partisan here, and to listen more than to advocate, and assuming (ambitiously) that I'll be inside that organisation in 2 months time, and party to what happens in what unfolds... to call out bad practice every single time I see it. I already have. My extended presentation frankly eviscerates some Nominet policy, and I don't intend to stop or 'go native' once I'm inside. There will already be people who give me a frosty reception because I've called out their poor judgment, and that's how it's going to be.

My pride is my nursing and my family, and I'm a complete outsider. I aim to stay that way, and I'll be applying forensic scrutiny to every single decision that Nominet makes. You know and I know that if that narrative happens then my individual influence is likely to be marginal. But I will be there to ask awkward questions, to see, and to record. I want people to know that they will be accountable, and that's what's needed with the dropping systems too. Rules have to be enforced (and they need re-writing), and anyone who wants access to UK domains must be held to account for themselves, their business associations, their shared platforms, and the use those are put to. If a system can be built that reins things in, as you say 'to make things harder' then that's fine with me. It doesn't have to be the auction model, but it does need to be a model that is orderly, rules-based, and resistant to cheating.

26 days to go...

 

[Edwin]

How about operating them, not for charity, but to reduce domain registration fees? That way, every single domain owner potentially benefits (a little) from auctions. Nominet could top up the value of all the auctions once a year, and that pot - assuming it's high enough - would then be used to discount their wholesale registration/renewal fee. At the very least, it might be sufficient for them not to raise prices AGAIN!

Because at the moment, and for a very long time now, everything Nominet does seems to take it away from its once-core purpose of operating the UK registry, so that would at least tiptoe back in that direction.

 

[Edwin]

No. I don't think there's any prospect of Nominet getting into the game of auctioning other people's domain collections. I don't see that happening at all.

Why? For me, that seems the most obvious attraction of an auction platform for a certain segment of their customer base. The credibility of having them run the auction would be huge.

 

[Siusaidh]

Well you could be right, Edwin. I can see that an official UK auction base with Nominet's name might extend the auction market to a wider audience. I'm just not sure they'd want to go down that road. You could raise it in the consultation though.

 

[Edwin]

Final point, for now: if Nominet establishes the principle of "auctioning dropping domains is OK" in the minds of the public, what's to stop Big Registrar from setting up its own auction system for the millions of .uk names it's scooped up (and other domains its customers stop renewing)?

After all, Nominet offer privacy, but that doesn't stop the Registrars offering their own privacy services and charging more for them.

Also, in the .com space, many registrars either have auction platforms or partner with auction platforms to auction off expired domains. Some e.g. Fabulous.com even have an intriguing "revshare" deal if you sign up for it i.e. you get a cut of what your own expiring domains make at auction. Usually it doesn't amount to much - if the name were great you'd hang onto it, right - but over the years it adds up.

 

[Siusaidh]

Yes, that's one of my concerns too. I raised it on Page 1 of this thread. I'll repost a part, so it's alongside yours, Edwin, because I do see this danger:

I have written to Nick Wenban-Smith this week on the subject of large registrars - but haven't heard back yet. What I want to clarify is, if Nominet decide to run auctions at around 90 days (after a 'pending delete' period)... can we be sure that large registrars with their own platforms won't auction the names first in order to cream off the profits before Nominet's charities get them?

I could imagine emails routinely sent to registrants with wording something like: 'We are sorry you have decided not to renew your domain name and have chosen to let it expire. If we do not hear from you, we serve notice that consequent to your decision we shall be auctioning your domain name to let someone else have it. Please reply within 7 days if you do not want us to do this, as if you do not, we shall take that as confirmation that you have indeed chosen to let it expire.'

And frankly, as that would be (to use Nominet's justification for non-action over the mass-registration) "a matter between the registrars and their clients", would Nominet intervene to stop that happening?

I am considerably concerned, based on previous behaviour, that large registrars may see the new model and decide to monetize all expiring domains for themselves, thereby preventing the money ever getting anywhere near a charity.

 

[Lovekraft]

I do sympathise with your position here Susanna, your opinion might not be the most popular here but I can see you are sincere in the reasons you wanted to go this direction. I don't hold any grudges on you personally even if my messages might seem anti whatever it is you are proposing!

Quite a few people on here are literally having to come to terms with the likelihood that their income is about to vanish wether that's a full time or part time income it affects many small organisations. It comes at no comfort when that income is going to be swallowed up by the very organisation we pay our membership fees to every year or outsourced to one large entity.

However... I can't deny the whole game has become a mess so I'm not naive enough to have not seen this coming.

 

[Murray]

How about operating them, not for charity, but to reduce domain registration fees?

That would be handy for someone with an obese portfolio

Wouldn't be much benefit to anyone else

 

[Edwin]

The way the .com registrars seem to do it is they just go ahead and auction the names anyway, and cancel the auction if they get renewed. It's "easier" for them because there's a brief PENDING DELETE period in the .com drop cycle - before the domains drop, but during which time they can't be renewed any more.

So they run the auction from say 30 days before the drop date up to and including the start of the PENDING DELETE period.

If the name gets renewed, the auction just "vanishes" i.e. it's as if it never took place.
If the name makes it as far as the PENDING DELETE period, they know it's guaranteed to drop, so the auction can proceed to its second, final stage. There are various slightly different models, but they usually allow bidding to continue during PENDING DELETE though there might be a buy-in requirement i.e. you have to pay a fee to join the auction during that late stage. If you were alread bidding prior to that, usually you can keep participating. They've all cooked up so many different versions it's hard to keep track, and quite honestly I haven't bothered for years, but that's the basic shape of how it works.