Guidance Notes - CD Rom & Error

[retired_member6]

I'm just wondering but has anyone else in the past found the nominet package to be lacking? it would seem more often than not you're to wander aimlessly around their website to find things. What they should develop as they expect you to do things online as well and find out things for yourself, what they should enable is a CD Rom.

One through ten easy steps on how to respond, including everything, right down to the online forms that lie buried deep on their site. Are you supposed to use them? I don't know. It looks better using them.

I filed my submission before midnight last night through normal email, I included name, address, domain, case number and my submission and it would be dated and signed after print out. At 1:30am in the morning after wondering how the solicitors got such a fancy complaint form, I looked through their site AGAIN.

I couldn't find anything until, quite by chance, I scrolled to the bottom of one page and under an address there it was, online form for the respondent to fill out, which makes the print out similar to the one the complainant uses. So I use it one and a half hours after deadline, only by doing this and when copying and pasting I accidentally ommit two words, the document would have been better with them included.

I have sent that statement thinking it's the same as the one before midnight and also used the better looking form as three hard copies and winged it's way to nominet. Now I find there's two words missing in the hard copies printed out from the 'after midnight' submission compared to submission sent before midnight.

Now Nominet wish to penalise me for using the after midnight submission that's missing two words because they're not the same documents. I'm discussing a way round this at the moment and will hopefully find out tomorrow. The guidelines it has to be said, are inadequate and as a previous trainer their system should be looked at and provided a more man on the street feel rather than all this legal jargon made by and for, solicitors.

Nominet, create and supply a CD rom and also get rid of this paper and within that CD rom, get a trainer to help develop it ensuring every question and confusion is eradicated. I've said it before, but for an event which is instigated at no cost to the complainant, it doesn't half cause a lot of hassle.

Two words missing not two words added, why can't they just edit the paper copies and 'after midnight' email submission to make it look like the 'before midnight' submission as I had intended, I'd give them my permission to sign and alter the paper work.

 

[rob]

The 'pack' and website are quite good, plus if there is a problem it is possible to call them and Nominet are on the whole very approachable and helpful.

To be fair there is a decent timeframe to respond so leaving it late is your choice... likewise the two words could be important or not and it is likely if it was not a last minute job there wouldnt be errors? The aim is that copy is emailed and posted, at what point does a document 'change' when they have different words? There has to be a standard timeframe, rules etc and both parties have to follow it.

http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes seems to have help section, online forms and FAQ.

From Nominet.org.uk site click 'disputes and legal' and the DRS info is there, not really 'hidden' - three logical clicks from the main nominet site to get to the DRS response form

I fully agree that a fair bit of work has to be done even if the complaint has no basis etc, however I would say the process itself is quite open and straightforward, even if the decisions and ease of complaint is not 100%

 

[bb99]

I'm afraid I can't really add any wisdom to your situation Lee but having read this post, your other posts and spoken to a small number of others who have had to respond to a DRS, the one thing that strikes me is what a massive and stressful ball ache the whole process is...

... and all this before the complainant pays a bean.

Again, good luck Lee, please keep us updated.

 

[rob]

... and all this before the complainant pays a bean.

This is the main problem of the DRS now... I have had a few where complaint comes in , have to form a reply, goes to mediation with no reply and also doesnt get to a decision.

I would be all for Nominet charging a fee to kick off a DRS ... er... cost recovery of course

 

[retired_member6]

Are you a solicitor rob? I told a few people about what was going on in this latest saga and they all replied 'sounds like you need a solicitor' when all I need is the people at nominet to simply add two words to the 'after midnight' copy to make it the same as the 'before midnight' copy, where's the harm in that?

Not forgetting that I only had 14 business days and the post was late arriving to me and that Nominet wouldn't even give me back that 15th business day which would mean I am on time. How is that correct and keeping to the rules I ask you? One rule for one...

That sums up the situation for me. in this day and age i.e. not Dickensian. Right and proper guidance and all forms should be placed in a CD rom, everything in one place, not left to one's own imagination and I would have called had I thought they were open at 11pm at night. Were they?

The fact remains I shouldn't need to guess about online forms and what with 3000 cases already going through, you'd have thought this would be obvious? Make the system and proceadure more man on the street and take it from out of the hands of solicitors.

With 3000 cases going beforehand, I shouldn't need to sit there half an later after compiling three piles of papers for three different people and then thinking, well my reply isn't laid out as fancy as the complainants, now why is that?

The basics of this is, as soon as the DRS was issued I had lost that's the brutal truth, no matter how much I beleive I am correct in my arguement, the system makes me believe I've lost.

The whole event is issued free to the instigator, I paid for the domain, believe the domain to now be worth a lot more than I paid for it, believe it's use to me is more worthy than the complainants as I have development plans and it is in use for whatever reason I see fit. Yet it's caused hassled, caused me to defend and what's the next stage? Mediation.

I've done all this during a free service and all that happens is mediation? The mediation should have come first, 'without prejudice' then comes the defence building, then comes the evidence, and obviously after mediation fails, if it fails, the complainant would pay the £750, the defendent would get at least £50 of that to pay for costs and the expert can have the £700.

Instead of worrying for the best part of a month I decided, that with all knowledge at hand in that guidance sheet that I wouldn't let this freebie harrassment get me down and I will do it on the last day after spending a week at the beginning getting together the basics.

It's not the full and comprehensive reply I would have liked, indeed I'm about 350 words short and missing a lot of evidence I could have thrown in, or rather 352... it doesn't include all arguments I could think of, however given the process and the free system you have to weigh up how much of a liberty it all is compared to the stress it will provide.

I bought a domain, if Nominet are going to allow a third party to steal that from me then no argument I put forward will help, it just sums up the whole legal game and it's always been the same. I bought a domain, I didn't realise I bought a £3000 fine to keep it or me in court defending a purchase that the complainant brought for free.

So Rob, I'm afraid you can argue nominet's side until you're blue in the face, as soon as that DRS arrives the defendent is made to feel like they have lost and it's yet to be proven otherwise. The fact mediation comes first and the true results of such mediation are not known shows the system is flawed, you don't get actions like that in court, you at least know the result and what cases went to/failed or resulted in mediation.

It could be said proceedings have already begun by way of full submission accepted beforehand so the public at large have a right to know what the result was, is mediation just a glorified get a domain for £650? what does it offer, what the majority of results? We don't know but as proceedings had already begun and there's no way of building a case afterwards, one would suggest there's more than a good reason to know.

Try not to argue my initial points too much, or please do, but realise that this is my perspective from a training point of view, one shouldn't presume the person receiving the bundle and guidelines will automatically find what you want them too unless you list that guideline.

If there's a mention of online forms and a url then fair enough, I didn't see it though. Step by step and that's the website I will provide when I've finished, because I don't want others going through the same problems and asking the same questions several thousand others may have asked.

I've lost now it's up the independent expert, if mediation fails - at which point for some barmy reason you won't even know the result - to tell me why the complainant gets a domain name for free.

Furthermore, on this new website, I'll hopefully be able to run an informal dummy procedure, not procedures for dummies, whereby a a person can gain experience of a DRS before they've even been subject to one making them stronger in knowledge where Nominet's guidelines lack.

 

[rob]

Are you a solicitor rob? I told a few people about what was going on in this latest saga and they all replied 'sounds like you need a solicitor' when all I need is the people at nominet to simply strike two words from the 'after midnight' copy to make it the same as the 'before midnight' copy, where's the harm in that?

No I am not a solicitor, I didnt realise I had to be one You asked if I found Nominets DRS stuff to be lacking... I dont.

Not forgetting that I only had 14 business days and the post was late arriving to me and that Nominet wouldn't even give me back that 15th business day which would mean I am on time. How is that correct and keeping to the rules I ask you? One rule for one...

Right, so you had 15 days.

-1 day due to postal errors, however up until the cock up last night / this morning you were aware of midnight being the 'real' deadline.

That sums up the situation for me. in this day and age i.e. not Dickensian. Right and proper guidance and all forms should be placed in a CD rom, everything in one place, not left to one's own imagination and I would have called had I thought they were open at 11pm at night. Were they?

CD-ROM is quite dickensian in my view... I would have no problem with it all being done via email , however that would require all domain owners to keep current PGP keys with Nominet, in the words of Big Ron thats a 'Big Ask'.

Calling Nominet one hour before the deadline? What about the previous 13 working days or earlier in that day?

The fact remains I shouldn't need to guess about online forms and what with 3000 cases already going through, you'd have thought this would be obvious? Make the system and proceadure more man on the street and take it from out of the hands of solicitors.

With 3000 cases going beforehand, I shouldn't need to sit there half an later after compiling three piles of papers for three different people and then thinking, well my reply isn't laid out as fancy as the complainants, now why is that?

I am not sure what more nominet can do as there is loads of information and guides on their website and they post out a load of bumpf as well, and on top there is email / telephone support if needed. How far do Nominet go? giving you a CD with all the information on it wont help you if you havent followed the website / info pack!?

The basics of this is, as soon as the DRS was issued I had lost that's the brutal truth, no matter how much I beleive I am correct in my arguement, the system makes me believe I've lost.

I wouldnt say the system made me feel that, each to their own though ...!

The whole event is issued free to the instigator, I paid for the domain, believe the domain to now be worth a lot more than I paid for it, believe it's use to me is more worthy than the complainants as I have development plans and it is in use for whatever reason I see fit. Yet it's caused hassled, caused me to defend and what's the next stage? Mediation.

I've done all this during a free service and all that happens is mediation? The mediation should have come first, 'without prejudice' then comes the defence building, then comes the evidence, and obviously after mediation fails, if it fails, the complainant would pay the £750, the defendent would get at least £50 of that to pay for costs and the expert can have the £700.

As I have said before, I agree it is wrong for DRS to be kicked off for free and no hassle to instigator as everything has to be defended just incase it does get to a decsion.

Complaining now is pointless and this is where we disagree The system was in place + terms there when domain regged / paid up renewal etc... there was a feedback session a while back on the new policy (my complaint was on the 'pattern of registration' rule) . There is no point saying documents with different words ought to be the same, that deadlines ought to be extended, that mediation ought to be first etc etc - better getting on with the job!

I bought a domain, if Nominet are going to allow a third party to steal that from me then no argument I put forward will help, it just sums up the whole legal game and it's always been the same. I bought a domain, I didn't realise I bought a £3000 fine to keep it or me in court defending a purchase that the complainant brought for free.

So Rob, I'm afraid you can argue nominet's side until you're blue in the face, as soon as that DRS arrives the defendent is made to feel like they have lost and it's yet to be proven otherwise. The fact mediation comes first and the true results of such mediation are not known shows the system is flawed, you don't get actions like that in court, you at least know the result and what cases went to mediation.

No... its a complaint, you get to reply... someone else decides if the problem cannot be sorted.

There has to be a process for dispute resolution and this is the one, and the one you agreed to use !?

As for mediation being confidential, I think that is a good thing.

It could be said proceedings have already begun by way of full submission accepted beforehand so the public at large have a right to know what the result was, is mediation just a glorified get a domain for £650? what does it offer, what the majority of results? We don't know but as proceedings had already begun and there's no way of building a case afterwards, one would suggest there's more than a good reason to know.

Try not to argue my initial points too much, or please do, but realise that this is my perspective from a training point of view, one shouldn't presume the person receiving the bundle and guidelines will automatically find what you want them too unless you list that guideline.

If there's a mention of online forms and a url then fair enough, I didn't see it though. Steps one to ten and that's the website I will provide all when I've finished, because I don't want others going through the same problems and asking the same questions several thousand others may have asked. I've lost now it's up the independent expert, if mediation fails at which points for some barmy reason you won't know even the result, to tell me why the complainant gets a domain name for free.

It seems the main gripe is that things are not explict on what steps to take.

www.nominet.org.uk , click 'disputes and legal'

at the bottom:
Dispute Resolution Service Help
Dispute Resolution Service Online Forms
Dispute Resolution Service FAQ

Top right has

Related contacts

Contact the DRS team about disputes

[email protected]
01865 332211

In another thread you were asking for the DRS team email address

Clicking on the first one, the HELP, comes up with http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/drs/help/ which has a pretty blatent information set.... forms, timetables, examples etc etc

All the information is there

I have full sympathy over the DRS and the injustice if it is invalid and that you have to spend time defending it at no hassle to the insitgator, however I dont believe the information / Nominet system is dire , and that the process has rules for a reason...

 

[retired_member6]

Complaining now is pointless and this is where we disagree The system was in place + terms there when domain regged / paid up renewal etc... there was a feedback session a while back on the new policy (my complaint was on the 'pattern of registration' rule) . There is no point saying documents with different words ought to be the same, that deadlines ought to be extended, that mediation ought to be first etc etc - better getting on with the job!

Give it a rest, who's complaining? we're having a discussion! Complaining is what I would do to nominet not here on a message board.

 

[retired_member6]

-1 day due to postal errors, however up until the cock up last night / this morning you were aware of midnight being the 'real' deadline.

Still one rule for one...

 

[retired_member6]

In another thread you were asking for the DRS team email address

No I didn't ask for the address, I asked if it was correct and why would Nominet have a reply address that didn't work?

 

[rob]

Give it a rest, who's complaining? we're having a discussion! Complaining is what I would do to nominet not here on a message board.

Well I took your post as complaining about the DRS process, the inflexibity of it to not give you an extra time and for being too strict on document submission

 

[retired_member6]

Look, I'll not reply to all as I'll only be repeating myself, you're taking little bits and replying instead of taking the whole as a context.

For instance

Right, so you had 15 days.

-1 day due to postal errors, however up until the cock up last night / this morning you were aware of midnight being the 'real' deadline

.

Yes, and why did I reply after midnight? because I had no guidelines to show I should have used their online form to see it better presented, furthermore I used their form to get the layout right but at the same time it appeared to send the DRS again, otherwise we wouldn't now be having this conversation, albeit a little later when it would be seen there was a two word difference.

You seem to find 'here's the guidelines and also look through hundreds of pages on our website for the rest' an acceptable proposition??

What I should have done was just used their example document, manually copied over the sections and put my scribbles in place, we then wouldn't be having this problem, just that it would look different but would be in essence the same document and the DRS wouldn't have been resent.

All Nominet have to do is add the two words from the before midnight statement and if they had given back the 15th day when I pointed that out on 1st March and also recently this would all be sorted and the latter response would be good to go. In any case this is only the mediation stage and I've already decribed to you what a farce that situation is.

To think I've done all this work and the solicitor in the body of nominet is concerned about two words. Don't they realise this has all been for free and the fact I haven't just surrendered my domain and called their system worthless should be the basis of good faith in the first instance?

I am not a solicitor nor a clerk, I have done this to aid in their system and to keep the domain I hold and without all and sundry guidelines it's obvious I'm inclined to make a mistake or two. What are the repercussions when the expert sees a note explaining the electronic copy was on time but two words were removed 90 minutes later when a new electronic copy was sent after the deadline.

We shall find out I suppose. If they chuck it out then you can be damn sure that I would think hard and long about giving their system another go and would recommend all do the same. A system that gets no response is in nobody's interest. They need to sort their guidelines out and when approaching new things like this, I need to do a dummy run to see what guidelines the advising company forgot about. We live and learn.

I have the option of submitting the before midnight statement but I would need to send that off individually tomorrow if that's agreed. I did fail to make that point for the simple reason the sending of documents wasn't discussed.

However I feel my case will be better presented in a similar fashion as the complainant and do two words being left out really matter especially when taking into consideration the 14 days issue and the lack of guidelines pertaining to the event which led us here.

 

[retired_member6]

Well I took your post as complaining about the DRS process, the inflexibity of it to not give you an extra time and for being too strict on document submission

Well that's where you're wrong and may I advise smilies do not help the situation. Strict on some rules but not on others, if I repeat myself enough do you think you'll understand?

 

[rob]

Yes, and why did I reply after midnight? because I had no guidelines to show I should have used their online form to see it better presented, furthermore I used their form to get the layout right but at the same time it appeared to send the DRS again, otherwise we wouldn't now be having this conversation, albeit a little later when it would be seen there was a two word difference.

Just to make this crystal clear where the cock up happened - you went to the online reply form , filled in the statement, and it submitted.

You then didnt save copy / print the final shown page on the online system, so had to recreate it outside the online system after midnight to post and send in, and that recreation was missing 2 words? Then 90mins after the midnight deadline you then sent a 'correct' online submission?

You seem to find 'here's the guidelines and also look through hundreds of pages on our website for the rest' an acceptable proposition??

Yes, as its blatent on the website and the documentation is there and its all quite clear and straightfoward in my opinion.

If it is fair or not is a different matter, but the docs / process / timetable is clear in my view which is what your inital post asked. Sorry you dont agree

All Nominet have to do is add the two words from the before midnight statement and if they had given back the 15th day when I pointed that out on 1st March and also recently this would all be sorted and the latter response would be good to go.

So really you want 16 days to allow for post? You missed a deadline you knew about, I cant see how nominet being crap is an excuse.

You knew of the 14-15 day 'problem' on the 2nd as you posted to this forum querying the timeframes, thus had 14 days to sort a reply and consult on how to do it.

'Invincible' said at the time you didnt have to post but could submit by 'emailing your Response in the form of e.g a .doc, .pdf or .rtf or using Nominet's online form) AND by fax .

Perhaps if you had read his posts instead of liking him to a circus act it would have been more beneficial?

I dont know the domain or case, but if you care this passionately over the domain and rights the first thing I would expect is to find out what is needed to make sure you do everything by the book, certainly not be lost in the process an hour before the deadline !

and may I advise smilies do not help the situation

People have given good advice on this forum and elsewhere it seems but you seem to want to focus on other things, having a go at others, arguing the toss, blaming nominet, letting the complainant get to you etc - and it seems to have worked

How about being postive and doing something about it?

Perhaps post a new thread on here stating the current situation (assuming its now in mediation) and see if people can suggest a strategy that will try and either get you £ value for the name, or retain the name? Or call me a clown who isnt a solicitor and knows nowt and keep going...zzzzzzz

 

[retired_member6]

Just to make this crystal clear where the cock up happened - you went to the online reply form , filled in the statement, and it submitted.

You then didnt save copy / print the final shown page on the online system, so had to recreate it outside the online system after midnight to post and send in, and that recreation was missing 2 words? Then 90mins after the midnight deadline you then sent a 'correct' online submission?

I sent a normal email to Nominet before deadline which had the statement included. In the guidelines I didn't see any reference to a much easier ready made format nor a form to use.

It was only once I was sorting all the documents into folders and paperclips and post it notes did I think about the complainants presentation and perhaps there was another correct way.

At that point I looked through the website again and found by chance the response form, but checked examples first but as I don't have the software for that file I couldn't simply just pinch the layout so instead used the response form.

At the same time as me wanting a decent layout for the response it obviously sent the DRS to nominet again but 90 minutes late, worried as I was that my first submission was wrong I thought to hell with it and used that. But little did I know two little words were omitted and that's where the problem is, from copying and pasting somehow there's a difference of two words in the before midnight submission and the after midnight submission.

 

[retired_member6]

Or call me a clown who isnt a solicitor and knows nowt and keep going...zzzzzzz

All I asked was were you a solicitor, you just come across as one. Look, you won't agree with my point of view that's fair enough. I've said what I've said because that's what I believe, the guidelines are insufficient. I'm not moaning, I'm stating a point of view - is that not allowed, does it have to be moaning?

Just because something is clear and straight forward in your mind, does not mean it is clear and or obvious in somebody elses.

Do I want 16 days for post? No, the deadline is only in reference to the electronic copy and I have that in writing. As the deadline is midnight that means I have the chance to post the document and exhibits by 3pm the next day. The fact remains my 15 days started late and should have started when the hard copy was first received.

Gawd knows what happens if you go on holiday, should you send a notice of leave to nominet just in case?

People have given good advice, and be careful what you say, people have given good advice and I have replied in gratitude albeit in response to people who write in a manner I am unaccustomed or I find detracts from the point of assistance, perhaps when browsing I should simply ignore the put downs.

You have an amazing ability to get under someone's skin, just read your last para and a half for christ's sake.

As for mediation, yes I've got that to bloody come yet as well. Talk about arse about face.

 

[SF]

All I asked was were you a solicitor, you just come across as one. Look, you won't agree with my point of view that's fair enough. I've said what I've said because that's what I believe, the guidelines are insufficient. I'm not moaning, I'm stating a point of view - is that not allowed, does it have to be moaning?

Just because something is clear and straight forward in your mind, does not mean it is clear and or obvious in somebody elses.

Do I want 16 days for post? No, the deadline is only in reference to the electronic copy and I have that in writing. As the deadline is midnight that means I have the chance to post the document and exhibits by 3pm the next day. The fact remains my 15 days started late and should have started when the hard copy was first received.

Gawd knows what happens if you go on holiday, should you send a notice of leave to nominet just in case?

People have given good advice, and be careful what you say, people have given good advice and I have replied in gratitude albeit in response to people who write in a manner I am unaccustomed or I find detracts from the point of assistance, perhaps when browsing I should simply ignore the put downs.

You have an amazing ability to get under someone's skin, just read your last para and a half for christ's sake.

As for mediation, yes I've got that to bloody come yet as well. Talk about arse about face.

Lee,

I have been following this post this evening, and Rob's last paragraph was right, either focus on the problem and do something about it or keep going ranting on this forum and create more problems for yourself?

You seem to take everything very personally , perhaps chill out, people are here to help so dont get irate and pissed off with them.

Cheers

 

[retired_member6]

Lee,

I have been following this post this evening, and Rob's last paragraph was right, either focus on the problem and do something about it or keep going ranting on this forum and create more problems for yourself?

You seem to take everything very personally , perhaps chill out, people are here to help so dont get irate and pissed off with them.

Cheers

I'm not sure what either of you think this forum is here for or this particular section. Any complaint I have goes to nominet, if that feeling is placed on here it then becomes a point of discussion. Also with regards this forum and this section and me being positive and doing something about it. It's been done, it's dusted, this is where points are being raised and discussed.

So any comment with regards to being positive, doing something about it is neither here nor there, we're discussing several subjects in this one thread and nothing is current and in my hands to deal with.

As for creating problems for myself, eh? This is a discussion forum not the united nations and formal changes to laws, discussion is allowed. It's all done and dusted albeit I have to sort this one little two word problem out in the morning for what good it will do.

And yes I do take things personal when words and sentances split up and taken out of context and I will continue to do so because I will not be spoken to in such a manner nor talked down to and felt their way is the only way, I am open to listen to other views and to take those views on board. That's what a forum enables.

Bill "The wolves are howling"

Mavis "It's not a full moon is it?"

Bill "it will be if I pull my trousers down"

There... chilled.

 

[jalpope]

little two word problem

I can think of two words to describe this thread.

 

[retired_member6]

I can quite imagine.

I've stated my view and I have one person arguing the only way that's right is nominet's way and now you're jumping in. I stand by what I've written, act that way if you like, you'll find a day when there's one rule for one and one for another and that not all is clear even when reading the guidelines.

I will know better next time, if there's a next time, however it shouldn't be the case that one knows better the second time, all should be clear at the first hurdle. And yes I know some of you find no problem understanding what's not written down for you to read.

And what's so wrong in suggesting better ways of presenting the DRS to the respondent? An all in one place step by step guide, if the papers sent with the DRS hard copy aren't required as guidelines, then why send them?

 

[Beasty]

I agree with Rob that it's surprising that you were not able to find the Response section on the Nominet website earlier Lee.

However I agree with Lee that it is unfortunate and rather strange that Nominet requires paper submissions - perhaps it is a shortcoming of their case managment software. Maybe someone from Nominet could enlighten us as to the reason. Also does their software still result in the complaint coming out as one long paragraph, with any formating lost?

I also agree with you that 15 days is a short and potentially impossible period to deal with a complex complaint - especially as you say if there is a delay or even if the recipient is away or otherwise unable to see the complaint for all or part of the period. Perhaps such a period seemed reasonable when the DRS was instigated - since it was meant to deal quickly and efficiently with simple "cybersquatting" cases.

However, now it has been routinely hijacked to run complex trade mark and passing off actions - with liberal use of the unlimited appendices commented on by experts in many recent decisions (e.g. retail.co.uk - http://www.nominet.org.uk/digitalAssets/3396_retail.pdf). 15 days to read such a bundle, seek advice, gather evidence and respond is a very tight fixed timetable - much more stringent than the courts.